Quick question on the Garmin 60CSx handheld GPS

[walker]

I'm new to the Garmin product, and the documentation Garmin supplies both with the product and on-line stinks, and knowing many members have this product, I'm asking this question knowing one of our GPS experts can help. When I have the "Satellite Page" displayed, there is the letter "D" displayed with some of the satellite signal strength bars, some of the time (not always). What does this "D" signify?


Picture of the screen...

Thanks....Walker

 

[DougPaul]

. When I have the "Satellite Page" displayed, there is the letter "D" displayed with some of the satellite signal strength bars. What does this "D" signify?

The D signifies that differential corrections are being used. (The corrections come from a WAAS satellite.)

FWIW, the WAAS satellites are low on the horizon and hard to receive in the trees. In practice, they don't always improve the accuracy and can even degrade it or cause the indicated position to jump as the corrections turn on and off. I generally leave WAAS off. (WAAS was designed (by the FAA) to improve the accuracy and reliability of GPS for aircraft, not for ground use.)

FWIW2: The accuracy reported by the GPS is pretty meaningless--it does not account for all of the factors which can degrade it. (As a result you can't use the indicated accuracy to determine whether WAAS helps or hinders.)

Doug

 

[walker]

Thanks Doug.....

I find it hard to believe Garmin puts out a product with almost no documentation behind it to teach the more advanced options on the GPS.

I'm sure there are people like myself out there who would like to know every little option without having to go though the trial & error I've been doing (took my two days to find the tide charts option).

Thanks again for the info....Walker

 

[DougPaul]

I find it hard to believe Garmin puts out a product with almost no documentation behind it to teach the more advanced options on the GPS.

I'm sure there are people like myself out there who would like to know every little option without having to go though the trial & error I've been doing (took my two days to find the tide charts option).

Poor manuals seem to be pretty common these days. (And then there are those who proudly refuse to read them....)

The Garmin online manuals are often better than the printed versions: http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/GPSMAP60CSx_OwnersManual.pdf

GPSes are complicated, sophisticated pieces of electronics. Many users don't understand the details--this is ok much of the time, but when something "funny" happens it may require advanced understanding to explain it. Understanding their limitations is also important--they aren't infallible magic as one might infer from the advertisements...

My suggestion is that you read the manual and still explore the menus--not everything is covered in the manual. Most users learn a habitable subset of the functions to meet their needs.

You may find it worthwhile to search this website for GPS threads--there are many, some of which may contain useful info for you. (Use Google advanced search: the internal search does not key on 3-letter "words" such as GPS.)
* GPS threads: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...s_filetype=&as_rights=not+filtered+by+license
* 60CSx threads: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...s_filetype=&as_rights=not+filtered+by+license

BTW: A weakness in the Garmin user interface: The menu button may lead to something, but there is no indication... (Some earlier models did tell you when the menu button was active.)

Doug

 

[MichaelJ]

FWIW, I pored over my GPS 60CSx manual and even the WAAS page mentions nothing about the D's on the display. The only reference I found was in one of the software updates, where it mentions that it fixed the D's not showing up.

 

[TomD]

I have a Garmin 76CSx which is a slightly different version of the 60CSx. My manual leaves a lot to be desired too, but there is plenty of info online. This website-
www.gpsfiledepot.com
is a great place to get free maps and help from the members in their forums. I asked some very basic questions when I got mine and they were quite helpful.

I see those little "D"s on mine too, but nothing in my book on them unless I missed it somewjere.

 

[walker]

More On-Line Resources

Thanks again for all the info being posted by members.

I have found three very comprehensive web sites concerning the 60CSx
They are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Garmin_GPSMap_60Cx_60CSx/

http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/g_60csx.html

http://garmin-mapsource.wikispaces.com/BaseCamp


The Yahoo Groups need you to join Yahoo to post messages,(no big deal).

"asiteaboutnothing.com" has a E-Book, "Garmin 60CSX GPS Best Tricks" you can down load. Most of the links in the book take you to an on-line reference. I haven't delved into it too deeply yet, but it looks promising.

The wiki link on Basecamp has to be better then anything Garmin has on line concerning the software "Basecamp". Basecamp has it's quarks, but once you learn the work-arounds it's not as bad as I thought.

I have also learned, if you buy any of the supplemental maps offered by Garmin, to get it on the disk, not pre-programmed on a Micro-SD card. If you purchase it on a Micro-SD card, you can't transfer it onto a larger capacity card and use it in the handheld unit. If you get the disk, you can. Very strange way of doing things. (This info is directly from Garmin, after I spent many hours trying every trick in my hackers book I could think of).

Thanks again for all the help. Maybe VFFT could start a "Equipment" category for all the little equipment questions we have. Include reviews, comments, where to learn more the equipment, etc. (Just spit-balling here).

Thanks again for all the info.....Walker

 

[Kevin Rooney]

... I have also learned, if you pay any of the supplemental maps offered by Garmin, to get it on the disk, not per-programmed on a Micro-SD card. If you purchase it on a Micro-SD card, you can't transfer it onto a larger capacity card and use it in the handheld unit. If you get the disk, you can. [/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]

That's an important point to emphasize. It might cost a couple of bucks more for the DVD version, but it's very much worth it.

On a related note - I had been using Topo 2008 for many years, and decided to buy Topo US 100K, assuming it would be an upgrade over Topo 2008, especially since I also have Topo US 24K West, and that does contain a higher level of detail. However, as best I can tell - Topo US 100K is simply the old Topo 2008 with a new name. I can't the difference.

While I know that Basecamp has become the new standard, I'm still using MapSource, and probably will until I have the intellectual curiosity to play with Basecamp, or buy a product that is only compatible with Basecamp.

 

[DougPaul]

While I know that Basecamp has become the new standard, I'm still using MapSource, and probably will until I have the intellectual curiosity to play with Basecamp, or buy a product that is only compatible with Basecamp.

I have seen comments from disappointed Basecamp users who are going back to MapSource. I use MapSource myself and haven't tried Basecamp.


By all means get the maps on DVD or CDROM--that way you can use them on your computer. You then load selected maps from the computer to the GPS (or data card).

Doug

 

[TomD]

I got a couple of the free maps off www.gpsfiledepot.com. I downloaded them to my computer and was able to then take the sections I wanted and load them on a Micro SD card. I used MapSource if I remember correctly. You might try doing that. If you can't figure it out-just ask on the forums there-that's what I did.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Why can't you copy the map(s) off the micro SD card to your computer and then back onto a larger card? You may need a reader for the card, but the GPS itself will act as an USB disk (the 76CSx does):

F:\Garmin\gmapsupp.img

Tim

 

[MichaelJ]

You can certainly do that, but you will not have a way to add more maps to the set. When you buy the card version, the complete map set is frozen and indexed in the form the GPS uses. When you buy the DVD version, you get the open form, which MapSource or BaseCamp uses, reads, and when you choose what to send, builds the big frozen blob form for the GPS.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

That is well understood. Walker's concern was transfer to a larger capacity Micro-SD card which you surely can do.

If you purchase it on a Micro-SD card, you can't transfer it onto a larger capacity card and use it in the handheld unit. If you get the disk, you can. Very strange way of doing things. (This info is directly from Garmin, after I spent many hours trying every trick in my hackers book I could think of).

You can't, of course, change the map(s) on the device into (a) different map(s). For that, you need Mapsource/Basecamp and the DVD distribution.

There is a definite distinction and I would not recommend the Micro-SD version, but it you HAVE that version and want to get a larger Micro-SD card, there should be no reason not to. Unless the Micro-SD distribution is somehow copy-protected, which I doubt.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

There is a definite distinction and I would not recommend the Micro-SD version, but it you HAVE that version and want to get a larger Micro-SD card, there should be no reason not to. Unless the Micro-SD distribution is somehow copy-protected, which I doubt.

No, it isn't copy-protected--it is locked to the card. (For some of their DVD/CDROM products, Garmin sells licenses that lock to the GPS. Topo 2008 is unlocked.)

There is a limit of 2025 map segments on the 60CSx. For the set of maps that I use (road and topo for the eastern 1/3 of the US), this comes out to ~1.3 GB. (Some map products have bigger segments than others. Topo 2008 has small segments so one tends to run out of segments before running out of space.)

Kevin:
Does Topo US 100K have larger segments than Topo 2008?

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...Kevin:
Does Topo US 100K have larger segments than Topo 2008?

Doug

I'm not sure. Doug. When I loaded it, it over-wrote the files in the existing MapSource subdirectory, so I have no ability to compare them.

On a different topic - here's a tidbit I'll throw out there:

- Clearly the 24K series are superior to the 100K series when it comes to providing additional map detail. Those differences are easy to see in MapSource if you have two products which cover the same geographical areas, like Topo US 24K West and Topo 2008/Topo 100K (essentially the same product). Simply load an old track, and use the drop-down menu option in MapSource to switch between the two products - the differences leap out at you.

However, here's the rub: when I purchased the Topo 24K West series, I purchased a second microSD card to download a subset of maps as I hike mostly in the West, and when I do visit the East I could simply swap cards with the Topo 2008 subset. What I found is that while the additional detail of the 24K series is great on my desktop computer screen, it overwhelms the 60CSx screen, providing so many contours line the display is mostly brown. In order to see the screen, I had to reduce the 'map detail' setting of the 60CSx considerably (yes, that setting is there, somewhere, if you are patient and look thru a bazillion menu settings). Ironically, I'd reached the point (at least for my eyes) of passing the point of "too much of a good thing". So, I reloaded my "western" microSD chip with the same mapset, but with the Topo 2008 as the source, and it fixed the problem.

I comfort myself that the $75 investment in the 24K series wasn't a total waste, as while I prefer the 100K version for use in the GPS, the additional detail on my desktop is much appreciated, especially for creating maps of upcoming hikes I share with my hiking companions for any given group hike.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

No, it isn't copy-protected--it is locked to the card. (For some of their DVD/CDROM products, Garmin sells licenses that lock to the GPS. Topo 2008 is unlocked.)

What does that mean? If it will not work except on that physical instance of the Micro-SD card, then it is (in effect) copy-protected. This means you can't make an archival backup, nor can you add more maps (assuming the card comes with minimal free space). Locking to the GPS means you can't get a new GPS and reuse the software while keeping the old GPS as a spare.

I vaguely recall the strong suggestion to get the DVD version, but I ended up with the free maps from the gpsfiledepot site and I am quite happy with them (YMMV).

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

I'm not sure. Doug. When I loaded it, it over-wrote the files in the existing MapSource subdirectory, so I have no ability to compare them.

I have 6638 files in my TOPOUS2008 directory (folder) consuming 3.2GB. If you can give me the same info for your TOPO US 100K, I can make an educated guess. (We can also compare filenames and md5sums via email if it seems worth it.) If the newer TOPO US 100K has fewer segments, it would be possible to put more area in GPSes. (The earlier GPSes had less storage space so small segments were appropriate. Newer GPSes with memory cards can benefit from larger segments.)

Clearly the 24K series are superior to the 100K series when it comes to providing additional map detail. <snip>

I simply have both 24K and US 2008 (100K scale) loaded into both my computer and my GPS and can select either map at home or in the field.

Note 1: If you have multiple maps loaded, the maps are displayed according to an undocumented priority list. A higher priority map generally obscures a lower priority map. You can select or unselect any map by category: map screen > menu > setup map > information ("i" in a circle) > menu

Note 2: to change display detail level: map screen > menu > setup map > "N" icon > Detail > (change level)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

No, it isn't copy-protected--it is locked to the card. (For some of their DVD/CDROM products, Garmin sells licenses that lock to the GPS. Topo 2008 is unlocked.)

What does that mean? If it will not work except on that physical instance of the Micro-SD card, then it is (in effect) copy-protected. This means you can't make an archival backup, nor can you add more maps (assuming the card comes with minimal free space).

It means that you can copy the data anywhere that you like (or even off and then back onto the original card), but the GPS will only run the original file from the original card. Thus you can archive and restore (to the original card), but not modify the file.

Locking to the GPS means you can't get a new GPS and reuse the software while keeping the old GPS as a spare.

Correct. You can buy a new lock from Garmin, but I have read that it will will cost almost as much as the original product.

FWIW, none my maps are locked...

I vaguely recall the strong suggestion to get the DVD version, but I ended up with the free maps from the gpsfiledepot site and I am quite happy with them (YMMV).

I have installed some free maps in my computer along with the Garmin maps--their quality and quantity of information varies. (Nice thing about running MapSource in a windows emulator (Wine)--you can have multiple installations with different sets of maps. And to try a new map, just clone the old file hierarchy and install the new.. If you don't like it, just delete the clone.)

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Thanks, Doug. That doesn't give the consumer much protection from physical media damage, which is the reason for cloning DVD distributions (I make an ISO and store them on a NAS device) - which is allowed by most software licenses (and perhaps required by law?)

I continue to remain unimpressed with Garmin's software. I like the GPS, but the software and associated policies seem particularly unfriendly to the consumer, IMO.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks, Doug. That doesn't give the consumer much protection from physical media damage, which is the reason for cloning DVD distributions (I make an ISO and store them on a NAS device) - which is allowed by most software licenses (and perhaps required by law?)

I would make a backup copy of the files on the data cards. You can at least restore damaged data if the card is still ok.

I continue to remain unimpressed with Garmin's software. I like the GPS, but the software and associated policies seem particularly unfriendly to the consumer, IMO.

MapSource isn't everything, but it generally meets my needs. (Or I have decided that I don't need much that it can't do... ) One can adjust the feature set somewhat by choosing the version.
http://www8.garmin.com/support/mappingsw.jsp (current versions and changelog)
http://www.gawisp.com/perry/agree.html (archive of old versions of mapsource)

I haven't tried Basecamp. (It is on my "sometime when I have nothing else to do" list...)

I also use GPSBabel (http://www.gpsbabel.org) and a text editor to edit GPX track files.

The limitations imposed by locking seem to be demanded by the map data suppliers and passed on to the consumer by the GPS manufacturers. US road maps and US nautical charts are generally locked, USGS topo data is in the public domain and are generally not locked. In many other countries the topo data is also proprietary and locked.

Many have complained about the inconveniences and additional costs of locking... (Garmin used to supply 2 locks with a product, now only 1.) I strategically bought the last Garmin roadmap that wasn't locked. It is dated 2002 and, of course, will not be updated.

Doug