Reservation System At Popular NY Trailhead

[DayTrip]

Ominous development in NY. Hopefully the idea doesn't catch on in NY or elsewhere.

https://www.northcountrypublicradio...RZQgVTneKSalHTK3I8EH4EORoVt4JLVu8Y_7AbyPOkMsU

 

[maineguy]

Ominous indeed. And that is a really popular access point with lots of trailheads leading from it.

There was a time decades ago when you needed a wilderness permit to camp in the Great Gulf, but that was short lived. We went for a hike near Sedona a few years back and one of the popular trails had parking lot with an attendant who controlled access. You couldn't park along the road, so you just had to wait until a spot opened up and the guy let you in. Really sucked. I hope the reservation system is not expanded.

 

[JoshandBaron]

We went for a hike near Sedona a few years back and one of the popular trails had parking lot with an attendant who controlled access. You couldn't park along the road, so you just had to wait until a spot opened up and the guy let you in.

Sounds like Diana's Baths

 

[maineguy]

Sounds like Diana's Baths

It does. Luckily, the only place that I have ever had to use a reservation system is at Lake O"Hara in Yoho National Park. The lake is surrounded by spectacular trails but you either have to walk about 7 miles or so one-way, or take a scheduled bus to get to them. That's where the reservation comes in. You make it months in advance. And with the crazy weather up there, you are really rolling the dice hoping for a good day.

 

[skiguy]

Bring it. Can't come soon enough.

 

[peakbagger]

I missed the Great Gulf permits by several years when I moved to the area in 1987. There were still some signage up. Some locals I talked to universally hated the system and claimed that the system could be "gamed" so that hose with connections got permits. Then again the damage from extensive overuse was far more visible then than today. Many folks established semi permanent sites along rivers and swimming holes. Most had been flattened and the the rocks pushed out of the way with a firering. I run into the areas on occasion fairly far out in the woods and despite 30 plus years of little or no use, they are still obvious. One of the reasons I usually end up at Baxter State park is the opportunity to book backcountry campsites where the nearest camper may be several miles away.

My guess is that technology has changed in the ensuing years to ensure a fairer system. The thing to be concerned is that someone would figure out how to work around the system and scalp spots. That used to happen at BSP when locals would attend opening day in January and buy up multiple weeks of reservations at the popular campgrounds like Daicey, Kidney Chimney and Russell and resell the slots usually under the guise of "guiding". There was a long running ad in Backpacker by a firm guaranteeing prime BSP reservations for years. The guides would start the trips outside the park using free North Maine woods campsites and then at the end of the trip haul their guests into the park for a night or two. I ran into a group of folks at Chinney once 20 plus years ago that had paid $100 a head per night to "guide" for what was then $20 bucks or less night.

I participated in WMNF survey run by UNH a couple of years ago and it was obvious that the survey was trying to develop justification for implementing crowd control in the whites. I never saw any results but expect they were used selectively to justify possible USFS policy.

 

[Mike P.]

Call me a skeptic, it sounds more like they are talking about cars. I didn't realize the lot had hours. So if I start at 4:00 AM, (it would be an easy headlamp hike to walk up the road and get to start of the trails near first light.) will they tow my car?

You aren't supposed to camp on AMR land, but you used to be able to hike through it as long as you didn't camp on it. Is the lot closing at 7:00. If I remember right, an Approach for Round Mt & Noonmark can be done from the lot and a 2:00 PM start in June and July would allow fit hikers the ability to get up and down Round before dark.

 

[DayTrip]

The ADK High Peaks forum has a pretty decent discussion going on the topic with a lot of the "what if" scenarios identified and discussed. My own personal take, at least as far as that particular spot is concerned, is that this is far more negative than positive. The "uninintended consequences" of the policy I think will far outweigh any remedy attempted by the change. I don't think they really thought the whole idea through beyond the obvious. It is just one more reason to discourage me from going through the aggravation of trying to hike in NY.

 

[Mike P.]

The ADK High Peaks forum has a pretty decent discussion going on the topic with a lot of the "what if" scenarios identified and discussed. My own personal take, at least as far as that particular spot is concerned, is that this is far more negative than positive. The "uninintended consequences" of the policy I think will far outweigh any remedy attempted by the change. I don't think they really thought the whole idea through beyond the obvious. It is just one more reason to discourage me from going through the aggravation of trying to hike in NY.

The AMR is a private club so in theory they could have kept us out of that area all together. The view of the Lakes with the mountains right against the shore and Rainbow Falls and Beaver Meadow Falls are amongst the best anywhere. Since I have Dial and Nippletop left as my last two and just one more, at some point I'll have to make that reservation. Possibly next year as I've got a week planned on the Allagash this year and a few more trips to NH this year.

 

[TCD]

Mike, if this holds, by next year the Gravestone Brook path for Dial and Nippletop should be as solid as any maintained trail; no reservation needed!

 

[Mike P.]

Mike, if this holds, by next year the Gravestone Brook path for Dial and Nippletop should be as solid as any maintained trail; no reservation needed!

Does that start from Elk Lake or leave the Noonmark trail? On another note, how far in advance can you book a date for? I wonder if it will fill up like AMC Hut Weekends? Between HS Graduation Scout Summer Camp likely happening, family vacation, etc. Hoping to get out to Emmons this year & Mt. Washington again.

 

[Peakbagr]

The upcoming reservation system has some background. In the early 80's, the AMR (Ausable Club) sold it's holdings above 2500ft to NYS. This included most of the summits of the Great Range. With the sale came a pair of parking lots back by NY73 and a ROW for hikers to walk the trails emanating from the Lake Road. The ROW specified no dogs, camping, fires, hunting, carrying firearms, or off-trail hiking below 2500ft. That arrangement has stood for 40 years until and announcement from the head of the AMR a few months ago. He stated that a pilot program would be instituted with DEC to limit hiker parking and protect the land from degradation. The details were just posted and the wording by AMR stated that this was being done to preserve the environment and access. Like the rest of trails in the High Peaks, the AMR trails have been pounded with the same issues as taking place on public property. The difference is that the same problems that appear on public land is happening on their property. There appears to be a lot at stake. An experiment to see how a limit at a very popular trailhead is accepted. Also, whether the AMR can change the terms of the ROW or threaten to do so.

 

[Peakbagr]

"Does that start from Elk Lake or leave the Noonmark trail? On another note, how far in advance can you book a date for? I wonder if it will fill up like AMC Hut Weekends? Between HS Graduation Scout Summer Camp likely happening, family vacation, etc. Hoping to get out to Emmons this year & Mt. Washington again."
Follow some of the outrage on the Adirondacks hiking forums on FB. Insulting the AMR members, elitism, the snobs, and posts about how to game the system.

 

[Mike P.]

Thanks, I haven't signed on there recently. Oddly, hiking for the sake of climbing a mountain has always been elitist. The working class back when the AMC was formed was working six days a week and Sunday was church and family day. Thru-hikers have re-nicknamed the AMC for years. Thankfully, I'm not on FB.

 

[TEO]

Bring it. Can't come soon enough.

I concur. No doubt there will be growing pains, but I have come to the belief that a permit system for the High Peaks, or at least for the principle trailheads—the Garden, Loj, Elk Lake, etc.—is the best way to preserve it for future generations.

 

[cragway]

Seggos added that the DEC was "excited to announce this unique pilot reservation system, which will help protect visitors and our natural resources, while also ensuring equitable access and educating visitors about sustainable use.”

Kind of chuckled reading the article.......equitable? .....is it really? when club members will not need reservations.

Did building the AMR and the road have a negative impact on the area?....Yes the original owners had good intentions when they purchased the land..but what positive aspects is it really having now?....just a structure that is grandfathered in.

....Luckily there are many less popular places in the Adirondacks that are just as beautiful.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Kind of chuckled reading the article.......equitable? .....is it really? when club members will not need reservations.

Most club members are not hikers, (but I know some are), and they would pass thru the inner gate to their residence, or other common property, where there is ample parking. They are not part of the parking problem, which IMHO, is the big issue here, not 'protect our natural resources'.

 

[JustJoe]

Ominous development in NY. Hopefully the idea doesn't catch on in NY or elsewhere.

Since it's about NY, I assume you meant NH or elsewhere? At any rate, it's happening in ANP. Starting this year, May to Oct, you will need a reservation to drive up and park on Cadillac Mtn. From what I understand, in 2022, the same will apply to all the popular lots/roadside parking from Sand Beach to Otter Cliff Road.

 

[peakbagger]

Everyone going to climb Mt Katahdin in Maine has to have a day use parking reservation or a campsite reservation in the park, this system has been in place for quite a while. The system had bugs early on but seems to work well these days. I hear far more complaints about the dog ban than the day use parking system. Folks have a choice, book a spot far in advance or take their chances as the date approaches or show up at the gate in the AM. If there are open slots in the AM the gate sells the open slots and then waits until 7:30 when they resell the passes of no shows. There is also the side benefit that the 7:30 AM cut off for reserved passes encourages hikers to set off earlier in the day which cuts down on hikers running out of daylight. To further the insult to some, they have to pay a road fee if they are not a Maine resident to drive on the park roads.

The claim is the day use fee was established as the cost of administering it but given its largely managed electronically and by the staff at Togue Pond gate, I suspect its really just a additional revenue stream.

 

[DayTrip]

Since it's about NY, I assume you meant NH or elsewhere? At any rate, it's happening in ANP. Starting this year, May to Oct, you will need a reservation to drive up and park on Cadillac Mtn. From what I understand, in 2022, the same will apply to all the popular lots/roadside parking from Sand Beach to Otter Cliff Road.

I meant other trailheads in NY like the Garden or the Loj, as well as other states like NH, ME, etc.