peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
Sherpa Clones https://www.irlsupplies.com/subgrouping.htm?cat=5845
They used to list most of the parts separately.
They used to list most of the parts separately.
Resue on Mt. Washington
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DayTrip
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I think every time I have gone through there in Winter the packed footbed (i.e. the "default" route everyone was following based on whoever tracked it out first) was in a different spot than the official trail location, in some cases very different. So taking a bearing at the hut of where the actual trail starts sounds like a good idea in theory but that may not put you on the actual packed track that is being followed by most foot traffic (i.e. the easiest route with the least likely drifting, spruce traps, etc). It might bring you down the official trail but the trail might be in untouched arm pit deep snow. You'll be heading in the right direction overall but the effort level might be substantially different, which could wind up being a big risk.
I'm hardly as experienced as many here in Winter hiking but that was one thing I quickly discovered about Winter. The "trail" is an ever changing thing from storm to storm, week to week and year to year. In the areas that get a ton of snow/drifting and markers are obscured trails behave much more like bushwhacks than in Summer. Unless you're a glutton for purity and trail breaking you'll likely follow the route everyone else did because it takes far less effort. And how efficient that route is depends very much on the skill level of the first guy or girl that set out to do it first.
When I did Owl's Head for the first time (and likely only time) in Wiinter Tim had shared a history of his GPX tracks over several seasons so I could get an idea of how the route went. There were many variations and even the route he had done just 4 weeks before me had been obscured and replaced with another route the day I did (a much dumber...ahem...less efficient). So you really need to know the overall area well and key points of interest that will determine which way you want to go, what fork to take when a track splits (very common on Ammo - there were 4 different tracks when I did at beginning of DEC), etc. The actual official trail is not necessarily what you are shooting for, which adds to the degree of difficulty when you lose the packed track and that packed track is "not where it is supposed to be". I always pre plot waypoints in my GPS in Winter for spots I want to know how to get too if everything goes sideways on me and I have nothing to follow.
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
The Berlin Daily Sun has an article in the Tuesday edition (1/17) that has an interesting twist. Wayne Presby the owner of the Cog claims he was contacted by F&G if he had started running the snowcat up the cog and speculating that having snowcat access would help save lives. He put in a dig against the group that is opposing his plans for the Cog hotel and the snowcat operation. Given the reported location of the rescue I don't expect it would have helped to have the snowcat running, as the topo from the cog Row to the brook looks pretty gnarly. I expect we will be hearing more grandstanding by Wayne when he thinks it will help him sway the public.
Of course the big question is would the hiker been soloing the Ammo without the Cog plowing the road to begin with? Accessibility has substantially increased the winter use from the Cog which therefore exposes more people to potential risks in winter. I guess the genie's bottle has been uncorked.
Of course the big question is would the hiker been soloing the Ammo without the Cog plowing the road to begin with? Accessibility has substantially increased the winter use from the Cog which therefore exposes more people to potential risks in winter. I guess the genie's bottle has been uncorked.
This is a spot on post well done. It use to be a whole other bag of donuts when the Cog base Road was not plowed.
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
On a somewhat related note, long before I started winter hiking I heard a reference to a required piece of winter equipment that I expect is now is worthless or soon will be. I think Forest and Crag may have mentioned it. Any party attempting a winter presi traverse should carry a dime. The dime was to use the payphone at the cog that was in theory functional at the Cog Base station in case the party had to bail off the west side of the summit. I expect it was a push button pay phone but would be even more anachronistic if it was a rotary phone 
. This was regarded as the best of the worst options for parties who got in trouble up on the ridge in winter.
I do know folks including myself who have made it up the to the cog when the cog crews plowed the Mt Clinton road. It was hit or miss and seemed to best done during the week. The gate sometimes would be left open or left closed but not locked and I am not sure they actively were plowing it until after Wayne Presby and partner bought the Cog. I dont think any guiding services routinely ran winter day hikes from there due to unreliable access. IMHO, if its not windy, the Ammo approach is far less difficult than the winter lions head approach. The first time I went to hike the Ammo in winter when the base road was officially plowed I was amazed, the parking was half full early in the morning and there was a two guides with a group of clients identically clothed head to toe in Mammut gear. The guides were hyping it like this trip was an ascent of Everest, it now reminds me of a South Park episode on Ziplining. When I got down in the afternoon the lot had obviously been been full, as cars were parked in overflow spaces. Backcountry skiers also have rushed in to take advantage of the access and use the Ammo to access various snowfields. I remember commenting once to someone that there was enough traffic from that lot to justify a coffee stand.
. This was regarded as the best of the worst options for parties who got in trouble up on the ridge in winter. I do know folks including myself who have made it up the to the cog when the cog crews plowed the Mt Clinton road. It was hit or miss and seemed to best done during the week. The gate sometimes would be left open or left closed but not locked and I am not sure they actively were plowing it until after Wayne Presby and partner bought the Cog. I dont think any guiding services routinely ran winter day hikes from there due to unreliable access. IMHO, if its not windy, the Ammo approach is far less difficult than the winter lions head approach. The first time I went to hike the Ammo in winter when the base road was officially plowed I was amazed, the parking was half full early in the morning and there was a two guides with a group of clients identically clothed head to toe in Mammut gear. The guides were hyping it like this trip was an ascent of Everest, it now reminds me of a South Park episode on Ziplining. When I got down in the afternoon the lot had obviously been been full, as cars were parked in overflow spaces. Backcountry skiers also have rushed in to take advantage of the access and use the Ammo to access various snowfields. I remember commenting once to someone that there was enough traffic from that lot to justify a coffee stand.
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Mike P.
Well-known member
The guides used to give you the same Everest bit even when going up the other side too. And still, people over and under prepare. I had a chance to go with one of the guide services in 1996. I was so over prepared that I had a pack full of gear and four layers on. Snow the night before and the wind changed out plans from Washington to Adams with the idea that getting to Madison Hut would be fine with a high summit forecasts of =10 with 50-70 MPH winds. When I started overheating, I had no place to put my extra gear. One of the other clients had to buy gear.
I love that zip-lining episode of South Park.
That said, I've given scouts every year two - four times a year the "No Cotton" extra gloves speech each fall and yet I know again this week, I'll see cotton, I'll see sneakers and I'll see someone with one pair of light gloves going out to throw snowballs or make a snowman and then tell me their hands are cold and wet......
As the more "experienced, mature" members know, when Base Road was unplowed, the preferred route was Winter Lion's Head. Since it's now plowed, the Ammo is only slightly longer and it avoids much of the avy terrain, it probably does not avoid them all,. (It's not as prone but checking all downed trees and such, there is some in the ravine.)
Generally, the New England hiking community prefers avoiding avalanche terrain or enter it without digging a pit based on how many shovels I've ever seen on packs, (have seen a few). Some of the hard core dig them and those training for trips to AK or other countries will practice their skills digging pits.
The Ammo approach is 500 feet higher, Tucks and Huntington get an avalanche report while Ammo doesn't and generally only a few spots are probably at risk near the trail. On the other hand, in general your exposure to the wind is greater on the Ammo while the cone provides some wind protection when the wind is from the typical NW or W.
What I and the group I was working on the winter Northern Peaks would do is pick one each year, do it in November so we could see what it looked like with some snow and then go back in winter. It also kept the trails fresh in our memory. For Washington, just prior to Base Road opening we went up Lion's Head and there was just enough snow to make footing miserable, we passed two people descending with lower leg injuries. It took so long going up, we opted to descend the auto road. We had clothing for the additional exposure and we would be able to walk at a very good pace as there was not enough snow to impede a regular walking pace. (The road in winter is really a poor choice due to the miles of above treeline exposure and drifting snow) Once they opened Base Road, the plan changed & I ascended both Monroe and Washington on separate trips using the Ammo.
As other's mentioned, once the snow really flies, the exact route of the trails above and near treeline changes. Valley Way does the same thing, descending near or in the brook. However, on Valley Way, the detour is narrow and brook comes close enough to get back on the trail. On the Ammo, it's wide enough and there is enough above treeline exposure that you can re-enter the woods far from the trail and not pick it up too. A similar thing happens on Franconia Ridge, hard to get lost coming off Liberty or Little Haystack, however, people lose the trail heading down off Lafayette.
A final not on bringing snowshoes or leaving them behind. There have been rescues on both Franconia Ridge and the Presidentials where weather conditions were bad enough that people descended away from the wind to get off the ridge. I believe they were off trail but even if they descended Six Husbands, Sphinx or Dry River, those trails get very little winter use and a lot of drifted snow and water crossings. (Early and late they can be an issue) In bad weather, ideally you would want to avoid being there, however if it changes on you, the plan that you must stay out on a ridge in an unforgiving wind because your snowshoes are in the car is a poor plan.
I love that zip-lining episode of South Park.
That said, I've given scouts every year two - four times a year the "No Cotton" extra gloves speech each fall and yet I know again this week, I'll see cotton, I'll see sneakers and I'll see someone with one pair of light gloves going out to throw snowballs or make a snowman and then tell me their hands are cold and wet......
As the more "experienced, mature" members know, when Base Road was unplowed, the preferred route was Winter Lion's Head. Since it's now plowed, the Ammo is only slightly longer and it avoids much of the avy terrain, it probably does not avoid them all,. (It's not as prone but checking all downed trees and such, there is some in the ravine.)
Generally, the New England hiking community prefers avoiding avalanche terrain or enter it without digging a pit based on how many shovels I've ever seen on packs, (have seen a few). Some of the hard core dig them and those training for trips to AK or other countries will practice their skills digging pits.
The Ammo approach is 500 feet higher, Tucks and Huntington get an avalanche report while Ammo doesn't and generally only a few spots are probably at risk near the trail. On the other hand, in general your exposure to the wind is greater on the Ammo while the cone provides some wind protection when the wind is from the typical NW or W.
What I and the group I was working on the winter Northern Peaks would do is pick one each year, do it in November so we could see what it looked like with some snow and then go back in winter. It also kept the trails fresh in our memory. For Washington, just prior to Base Road opening we went up Lion's Head and there was just enough snow to make footing miserable, we passed two people descending with lower leg injuries. It took so long going up, we opted to descend the auto road. We had clothing for the additional exposure and we would be able to walk at a very good pace as there was not enough snow to impede a regular walking pace. (The road in winter is really a poor choice due to the miles of above treeline exposure and drifting snow) Once they opened Base Road, the plan changed & I ascended both Monroe and Washington on separate trips using the Ammo.
As other's mentioned, once the snow really flies, the exact route of the trails above and near treeline changes. Valley Way does the same thing, descending near or in the brook. However, on Valley Way, the detour is narrow and brook comes close enough to get back on the trail. On the Ammo, it's wide enough and there is enough above treeline exposure that you can re-enter the woods far from the trail and not pick it up too. A similar thing happens on Franconia Ridge, hard to get lost coming off Liberty or Little Haystack, however, people lose the trail heading down off Lafayette.
A final not on bringing snowshoes or leaving them behind. There have been rescues on both Franconia Ridge and the Presidentials where weather conditions were bad enough that people descended away from the wind to get off the ridge. I believe they were off trail but even if they descended Six Husbands, Sphinx or Dry River, those trails get very little winter use and a lot of drifted snow and water crossings. (Early and late they can be an issue) In bad weather, ideally you would want to avoid being there, however if it changes on you, the plan that you must stay out on a ridge in an unforgiving wind because your snowshoes are in the car is a poor plan.
Brambor
Well-known member
IMHO - when the snow gets deep and unconsolidated and you get off the trail ... there is no modern snowshoe that has enough floatation. Perhaps the traditional Huron 14" inchers work in such conditions - I'm actually planning to test them out soon because I've been many times in deep snow conditions and as big as some of my modern snowshoes are they were pretty much useless at best and somewhat dangerous when I got tangled up under the snow and needed to release from the snowshoes.
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peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
I have played with various snowshoe styles in the past. One of the local scout leaders had quite a few different styles including some from northern quebec that were about 6 feet long and 14 inches wide. Like many of the native snowshoe varieties, the natives built what worked in the snow conditions that were prevalent in the area. The long snowshoes were great in open boreal forest conditions where going around obstacles wasnt required, not so good to turn around in or do sharp turns and I expect useless on a steep slope. Technical shoes like MSRs were designed for climbing relatively well packed or firm snow and I expect the design was developed out west were snow conditions are different. I do expect that the deep snow encountered in the rescue was a combination of wind blown snow and spruce traps. Large shoes occasionally save someone from a spruce trap but can be a real PITA and potentially life threatening when they do sink as the bigger the shoe the better chance it has of being trapped under a branch. I have been caught like that in the past with my larger tubbs and the only option was unbuckling them. Meantime I am swimming in snow and getting wet quickly which can lead to hypothermia quickly
I have been on a few hikes after recent snow or in areas that infamously fill in with wind blown snow where some folks have small alpine shoes and despite my added ballast I would end up having to break trail for those with MSR sized shoes as they were sinking in too far to make progress. On other hand it was explained to me once by someone who was an ADK hiker that they wanted short snow shoes as it made kick stepping up a steep slope easier. That makes sense on the uphlll but on a narrow trail my assumption that all that very careful kick stepping would get wiped out on the descent?.
When I first moved into the area I inquired about the AMC winter school. I received some information by mail including required equipment. The listing was quite emphatic, either Sherpas preferably the longer versions with the optional Tucker Claws or wooden show shows with climbing claws (looked like half a bear trap jaw lashed to the bottom of the snowshoe. They specifically banned the new Tubbs plastic decking snowhoes as they were "unreliable". (Tubbs initial run of the eventually very popular katahdin series had a material issue and they ended up recalling much of the first production run). For more than few years, the Sherpas were like Limmers, they had snob appeal in the hiking circles, if you didnt have both you were not part of the "in crowd". A friend joined AVSAR at one point and was informed that the long Sherpa's were the snowshoe to buy. On occasion there were good deals on used Sherpas as many folks didnt realize that the claw on the standard binding was pretty useless, they would buy them and stop using them as they were pretty useless for climbing steep slopes. The Tucker claw could be bought separately so the trick was buy a used pair with a standard binding and then install a Tucker claw. Long wide snowshoes had their limitations and that was on crusty side slopes, the claws would bite in but the snowshoes would attempt to pivot around 90 degrees in line with the slope. I dont know which company came up with the heel crampons but they made all the difference. Tubbs sold a retrofit kit and I think Sherpa eventually came out with one. The MSRs with the full length stainless traction bars eventually made heel claws less needed but when they came out initially it was a major innovation.
This article may be of interest to Sherpa Fans https://www.snowshoemag.com/2007/02/01/a-history-of-sherpa/
I have been on a few hikes after recent snow or in areas that infamously fill in with wind blown snow where some folks have small alpine shoes and despite my added ballast I would end up having to break trail for those with MSR sized shoes as they were sinking in too far to make progress. On other hand it was explained to me once by someone who was an ADK hiker that they wanted short snow shoes as it made kick stepping up a steep slope easier. That makes sense on the uphlll but on a narrow trail my assumption that all that very careful kick stepping would get wiped out on the descent?.
When I first moved into the area I inquired about the AMC winter school. I received some information by mail including required equipment. The listing was quite emphatic, either Sherpas preferably the longer versions with the optional Tucker Claws or wooden show shows with climbing claws (looked like half a bear trap jaw lashed to the bottom of the snowshoe. They specifically banned the new Tubbs plastic decking snowhoes as they were "unreliable". (Tubbs initial run of the eventually very popular katahdin series had a material issue and they ended up recalling much of the first production run). For more than few years, the Sherpas were like Limmers, they had snob appeal in the hiking circles, if you didnt have both you were not part of the "in crowd". A friend joined AVSAR at one point and was informed that the long Sherpa's were the snowshoe to buy. On occasion there were good deals on used Sherpas as many folks didnt realize that the claw on the standard binding was pretty useless, they would buy them and stop using them as they were pretty useless for climbing steep slopes. The Tucker claw could be bought separately so the trick was buy a used pair with a standard binding and then install a Tucker claw. Long wide snowshoes had their limitations and that was on crusty side slopes, the claws would bite in but the snowshoes would attempt to pivot around 90 degrees in line with the slope. I dont know which company came up with the heel crampons but they made all the difference. Tubbs sold a retrofit kit and I think Sherpa eventually came out with one. The MSRs with the full length stainless traction bars eventually made heel claws less needed but when they came out initially it was a major innovation.
This article may be of interest to Sherpa Fans https://www.snowshoemag.com/2007/02/01/a-history-of-sherpa/
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JoshandBaron
Well-known member
They were developed with input from testers across the country. I am part of their snowshoe testing team and got to help with the new crampons.
sierra
Well-known member
When I started winter hiking in the early 80's, I used a Canadian Rawhide laced shoe in the Bear paw style. I did upgrade the binding with an excellent binding that was similar to modern styles, minus the fancy buckles. The shoe's had good flotation, but you had to switch out to crampons as soon as it got packed or icy. The biggest issue was the spruce branches penetrating the decking. On a solo of IKE along the ridge, I sunk into a spruce trap and a branch skewered my decking and hooked onto it like a barb. It was one of my most gripping moments ever. It took me no less then 45 minutes, to free myself. I had to cut the branch with a knife, not an easy task when reaching down into a hole bent at an awkward angle. Then I found the Sherpa's. I upgraded those with the full crampon and it was an amazing transition in gear. I could now leave my shoe's on in between snow and icy sections. Granted you had to stay focused as the claw binding had a relativity small footprint and the rails were just pipes. I know for a fact that that model was built to withstand much more abuse then modern snowshoes, to this day, I could pull them out and use them. I just might for the fun of it, next time there is fresh snow.
egilbe
Member
Because of this thread, I carried snowshoes up Old Speck and never needed them, yesterday. Never did summit it, got to a col and the wind was howling so we turned around a half mile from the summit. Still a beautiful hike. I can feel that I didn't hike much the last two months.
DayTrip
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Absolutely true. I''ll never forget when I got my first pair of snowshoes 5 years ago. I followed all the tutorials online, figured my weight with gear, etc. My 30" Flex Alps arrived one afternoon so I got all my gear together, went out front to stomp around in the deep snow pack and sunk in up to my knees (the overall snow depth was not much deeper than that). Hunh. They certainly help out versus bare booting but deep powder renders snow shoes virtually useless. And the entangled tree branches when you sink down as you mentioned seem like more of a danger to me than not wearing the shoes. Like all other equipment there are times when they are not helpful.
Brambor
Well-known member
Therein lies the conundrum. 99% of the time wearing big snowshoes is probably bordeline idiotic in the whites. On popular hiking trails the MSR's of the world do the trick to keep the trail in safe hiking condition therefore one could surmise that by keeping it in safe hiking condition such snowshoes could be considered a 'safety equipment' to carry. In consolidated snow they make hiking easier but off trail in unconsolidated snow the normal modern snowshoe only adds marginal advantage to bare boots.
The reason I'm posting about this here is that I have been on some trips where I had to traverse 10 miles of trail that has not been broken for weeks and was lousy in traditional snowshoes, lousy but less lousy in backcountry skis ... but still I wondered how I can improve in such areas and think I will go somewhere and test the giant lightweight traditional snowshoes like these:
The reason I'm posting about this here is that I have been on some trips where I had to traverse 10 miles of trail that has not been broken for weeks and was lousy in traditional snowshoes, lousy but less lousy in backcountry skis ... but still I wondered how I can improve in such areas and think I will go somewhere and test the giant lightweight traditional snowshoes like these:
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
Pick up pair of these Army Surplus Snowshoes https://www.ebay.com/i/282793204558?chn=ps (watch the shipping costs), if they come with the military binding, carefully remove it and throw it away without wasting any time trying to use it. Now buy an Iverson binding https://iversonssnowshoes.com/product/iverson-aa-neoprene-binding/ and you are good to go. I really believe the reason the army dumped them on the surplus market is that the bindings that came with them were so bad. They are a traditional style snowshoe but made out of magnesium and vinyl coated stainless steel cable. Unlike ash and rawhide snowshoes which should have annual maintenance and on occasion will get gnawed on, these snowshoes are maintenance free. I used them for breaking out trails on my property, they really arent that bad while breaking trail uphill as the teardrop shape tends to wedge into the snow going up the slope. They are pretty well useless on crust. Some folks who buy these cut the trails shorter, they track better with the long tails. In deeper snow I find the effort is far less then with any of my modern style snowshoes. The wider track of the traditional shoe is offset by the better flotation over modern shoes.
One annoying issue is that snowmobile folks like the wider tracks and will on occasion follow my tracks to places they shouldn't be going. I usually find a few strategically placed trees to walk through that arent wide enough for a sled to go through if this is an issue.
One annoying issue is that snowmobile folks like the wider tracks and will on occasion follow my tracks to places they shouldn't be going. I usually find a few strategically placed trees to walk through that arent wide enough for a sled to go through if this is an issue.
Stan
Well-known member
It depends ... I'd take the Atlas, Tubbs, Northern Lights or the like for my winter trips because there is usually enough of us to share breaking trail if that is necessary on many NE trails. The main advantage to me is traction on steeper slopes or compacted or somewhat icy surfaces. The larger traditional shoes are better for more level terrain, softer snow and hanging on a cabin wall.
Stan
Well-known member
I think you can do something like that with mules, too, only the 2 X is used to whack it on the head to get its attention.
Brambor
Well-known member
Makes sense but how do we address this in the context of having snowshoes with you as a mandatory safety equipment or otherwise being negligent if majority of the snowshoes carried by White Mountains hikers will not be effective when a person gets lost and stuck in chest deep snow?
DayTrip
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Makes sense but how do we address this in the context of having snowshoes with you as a mandatory safety equipment or otherwise being negligent if majority of the snowshoes carried by White Mountains hikers will not be effective when a person gets lost and stuck in chest deep snow?
The NY model is probably the easiest way: "If there is x inches of snow on the ground having snowshoes is mandatory". Sure plenty of people will still go out and chance not seeing a ranger but if they have to go rescue you than it is pretty straightforward. 6" of snow on the ground and no snowshoes? Negligent. IMO in this case there was no negligence. The snowshoes would not have changed the outcome.
Stan
Well-known member
I may be wrong ... Steven right said that 87% of statistics are made up at the moment ... but it seems that the light powdery snow in which we sink so deeply is the exception here in the NE, unlike the West where dry conditions lead to the powdery snow and larger snowshoes are routinely needed. In our mountains, I'd opt for the benefit of the traction as well as improved maneuverability of the smaller shoes. Brambor makes a great point as to what constitutes negligence if the equipment is not up to the job. In that case, I'd say, stick to the conditions for which you're equipped and turn around before getting in over your head ... literally and figuratively.
