Rumors about Thoreau Falls Bridge Removal

[DougPaul]

When we started poking around in the pile of these support beams, the beams that had once been responsible for holding up the entire bridge, I was horrified and immediately understood why the bridge needed to be removed. These beams where rotten all the way through. When merely moving these support beams with a rock bar, the beams disintegrated.

This wood had been lying on the ground for over a year and had probably rotted significantly during that period. Termites and ants might have also contributed to the decline. (I don't know if the wood had been treated--if so, it would probably have slowed the degradation.)

I have watched the rate at which blown down tree trunks (cleared from a trail) degrade--a firm trunk can be pretty rotten after similar periods in contact with the ground.

The removal of the bridge on the Wilderness trail was a great loss--removal of the Thoreau Falls Bridge will also be a significant loss.

Doug

 

[Dave Bear]

Originally I was against the removal of the last bridge. I read forum after forum speaking to the condition of the bridge, most noting nothing was wrong with it. Sadly it went anyways. I decided to accept the fate of the bridge, and gladly agreed to help pack out the pieces remaining when Sabrina approached me. It was a great day with 20 plus volunteers. I met some great people and had a wonderful day carrying out buckets of nuts and bolts and swimming in the Pemi. Recently I went out to the remnants of the bridge to cut the support beams up into a size and weight that can be easily pulled out by people with sleds (With a crosscut saw of course, since modern tools are not permitted in the wilderness). When we started poking around in the pile of these support beams, the beams that had once been responsible for holding up the entire bridge, I was horrified and immediately understood why the bridge needed to be removed. These beams where rotten all the way through. When merely moving these support beams with a rock bar, the beams disintegrated. I believe the picture below says a lot. Personally I am relieved that I am no longer walking over this bridge.

Beams

The Thoreau Falls Bridge is beautifully constructed from some of the largest native logs that I have ever seen. Additionally, it is very functional, located in a place where crossing the river can be dangerous. However, the bridge is quite old and getting quite haggard, and now the bridge has been damaged in Irene. See pictures here of a before and after (as well as pictures of the Pemi 12 hours after it had crested.) Storm Pictures I wonder if we could all collaborate with the Forest Service to discuss all of the options for this bridge. Perhaps we could come up with a solution that would help align both the Forest Service’s goals and our goals, whether it is to repair, remove, and/or replace the bridge. I may be naïve or even a little too hopeful, but I would like to believe that this will work out for the best.

A lot of what I see in the picture is not rot but what we called "shake" on the sawmill. This is sometimes wind shake while the tree is alive, it can also come from the felling of the tree. It is basically a delaminating of the annular rings and often specific to the heartwood and a bit further out. It can be a big structural issue but not always depending on the size and depth of the timbers. It was common to see it in hemlock we were cutting 3" thick for bridge plank on town bridges. Some would disintegrate in your hands and I used to think it smelled like cat urine! Many large timbers are georgia pine and not very great wood to begin with. The timbers can also stress and delaminate under load as bridge timbers as well. Were there others that were solid? Is there still a lot left out there and is it staged to pull out? How is the passage out from the site now? Thanks for posting!

 

[Red Oak]

Fortunately that resolution is non-binding. It would seem to me to be poorly thought out.

"The U.S. forest service should not close hiking trails unless a demonstrable hazard exists which cannot be repaired"My concern here is letting the nh legislature determine what is going on in the W.M.N.F. It might make more sense to trust the U.S. forest service when it comes to determining what is a safety hazard in our forests then a anti-enviromentalist like jeb bradley.This is the same dude who voted to withdraw from the Regional greenhouse gas initiative,which seems like a great way to cut down on carbon levels and help curb pollution to our beautiful state.Jeb also has a low score with the league of conservation voters.It goes beyond politics when a person demonstrates a allegiance to big polluters and a disdain for people who want to save our resources.Jeb bradley and his bill are not to be taken at face value.For people like him "ENVIRONMENTALIST' is a dirty word instead of a adjective used to describe a person who cares about nature and our impact on it.Sorry to get all political but this topic seems open to it.I am not that anti republican but more anti anti-environmentalist!I bet jeb likes people who think trees cause pollution,lets name a mountain after them

 

[Becca M]

Thanks for all the great responses so far!!!! The sad thing is that most of us who care (hikers/skiers/users of the bridge) cannot really figure out how communicate *with* decision-making-types and volunteer to save this bridge before it's too late and decisions have been made without our input. I'm even thinking some of us could provide muscle power and/or $ (I would) ....

~sigh~

 

[una_dogger]

Hey Red Oak- have you ever hiked with Jeb? I have quite a few times - and I disagree with your assessment - the resolution he has currently put forward (linked by Rocket21) is, if i understand it, all about giving the state of nh (and its people by proxy) more power against the arbitrary decisions of the FS with respect to the WMNF access. That and not allowing them to spend money on tear downs if they can't afford to finish the job ! That seems like a good step Moving forward ;/)


Disclaimer: registered democrat and not a nh resident ;-)

 

[rocket21]

My concern here is letting the nh legislature determine what is going on in the W.M.N.F.

If you read the bill, you'll see that it's called a resolution, and that it would be a statement from the NH state government to be sent to the Federal delegation to act upon. Nowhere in the bill does it give the NH Legislature power over the WMNF.

(Political attack)

Consistent with the policies of this site, I expect your post will be heavily truncated or removed due to the political attacks. Nonetheless, the 'dude' you refer to was also instrumental in getting the Wild River Wilderness established, as well as expanding the Sandwich Range Wilderness. Do your homework before commencing your slandering operation.

 

[Niltiac]

Thanks for all the great responses so far!!!! The sad thing is that most of us who care (hikers/skiers/users of the bridge) cannot really figure out how communicate *with* decision-making-types and volunteer to save this bridge before it's too late and decisions have been made without our input. I'm even thinking some of us could providing muscle power and/or $ (I would) ....

~sigh~

I absolutly agree!

 

[Red Oak]

Hey Red Oak- have you ever hiked with Jeb? I have quite a few times - and I disagree with your assessment - the resolution he has currently put forward (linked by Rocket21) is, if i understand it, all about giving the state of nh (and its people by proxy) more power against the arbitrary decisions of the FS with respect to the WMNF access. That and not allowing them to spend money on tear downs if they can't afford to finish the job ! That seems like a good step Moving forward ;

)Hi Sabrina!I have never hiked with jeb and thats ok with me.Maybe jeb can sway some to his "environmental" forward thinking but all one has to do is google-jeb bradley environmental issues or league of conservation/jeb bradley to see he is not a friend of nature.Maybe he is going forward on the specific bridge issue but as a very liberal,grown up with clamshell alliance people around me and nature lover I do not trust Mr. Bradley on his "conversion".I do like the fact that the nh winter crowd is very diverse but someone being cool as a person does not erase a history of aggressive anti-enviromental positions.For years now this new breed of anti-nature conservatives have sold out my state of birth to the pro pollution lobby.Hard to be positive about them or appreciate them.I would love to see Mr. bradley get on board the pro-enviromental bus but do not see that happening.I met you on isolation this past feb.[2011] and know how nice you are,this issue is very important to me.....sasha

 

[Red Oak]

Do your homework before commencing your slandering operation.

Jeb has made his positions very clear on the "record",no need to slander him plenty of very well organized pro-nature lobby's doing that.And what ever happened to free speech?

 

[dr_wu002]

The Wilderness Trail used to cross the river 4 times following the logging RR, once on a cable car, but was moved to the S side as the crossings were tough. Hence there are at least 2 sections of old trail on the N side, at least one of which is very muddy.

If you also extended the trail on the N bank to Shoal Pond Trail, and a connector on the S bank from Thoreau Falls to the A.T. bridge, then you would have a long all-season loop from Ethan Pond Trail but would still need low water to access it from Wilderness Trail.

Roy: where were these crossings (and Cable Car!?)

It seems to me that building a trail that would connect from a location just North of Stillwater Junction on the Shoal Pond Trail (maybe in the vicinity of the major crossing about 0.5 miles north of Stillwater) to the area where the footbridge that crosses the East Branch on the Thoreau Falls Trail is possible if they don't want to maintain the bridge. I bet there's some logging roads / old trails they could utilize.

If they can build a new section on the Gale River Trail they can build a new section of trail here. I assume it's more difficult to build new trail in a "wilderness" area but perhaps this would be the concession for losing the bridge.

-Dr. Wu

 

[David Metsky]

And what ever happened to free speech?Did not someone else do their own website because of political differences?

Moderator Note
Free speech concerns the government, not private websites. This site is not a place for political discussion. You're new here, so you're learning the ropes and get a little slack. Please read the Site Rules and ask questions of a moderator if you have any questions.

 

[Creag Nan Drochaid]

ThorFallsBridge focus

OK, I stand corrected. I assumed the bridge we are discussing is on the North Fork just upstream of the actual Thoreau Falls. Instead it is on the Thoreau Falls Trail but crosses the East Branch not far north of North Fork Junction. I apologize for my confusion. It would help if we state what brook or stream a given brook crosses in future.

With that said, it is clear to me that this bridge ought not be eliminated without a big noisy public uproar, the ideological orientation of the district ranger notwithstanding. The public has the right to travel through lands we bought and paid for, followable and safe hiking trails are the lowest-impact way to do that, and safety does require some bridges. The Pemi is NOT a pristine wilderness, it is recovering from being mostly clearcut 100 years ago. The "damage" was done by those loggers, and we largely use the railroad beds and two-sled roads they cut to harvest timber for today's trails. If the goal is to exclude all users save those willing to bushwhack, then let the USFS ROS (Recreation Opportunity Spectrum) say so, but rest assured we will pressure our reps in Congress to clarify the Wilderness Act if that seems the only way to make these bureaucrats act in a more socially responsible manner. The resolution before the NH Senate attempts to publicize this issue and to assert the interests of the residents and businesses of NH and the visiting public. We should follow its course closely and be ready to testify by speech or in writing.
You'll note I do not say how, or on which side of the issue, we should testify, only that people who care about it should be sure they are heard. This resolution is a way many of us may speak with one voice. It can also influence what may be an excessive delegation of authority to district rangers who are then not accountable to their superior officers. Forest supervisors have to keep one eye on Washington DC.

Assuming a replacement bridge is authorized, this becomes a relatively simple matter of crew, design, tools, money, and logistics. Could someone please post as to just what is the clear span of this bridge between abutments? That is the most critical of the unknown dimensions. Also important is, how close can a truck be driven? Not according to wilderness rules, but physically.
Thank you very much.

Creag nan drochaid

 

[una_dogger]

)Hi Sabrina!I have never hiked with jeb and thats ok with me.Maybe jeb can sway some to his "environmental" forward thinking but all one has to do is google-jeb bradley environmental issues or league of conservation/jeb bradley to see he is not a friend of nature.Maybe he is going forward on the specific bridge issue but as a very liberal,grown up with clamshell alliance people around me and nature lover I do not trust Mr. Bradley on his "conversion".I do like the fact that the nh winter crowd is very diverse but someone being cool as a person does not erase a history of aggressive anti-enviromental positions.For years now this new breed of anti-nature conservatives have sold out my state of birth to the pro pollution lobby.Hard to be positive about them or appreciate them.I would love to see Mr. bradley get on board the pro-enviromental bus but do not see that happening.I met you on isolation this past feb.[2011] and know how nice you are,this issue is very important to me.....sasha

No worries- you are certainly entitled to your opinion - no offense meant or taken.

 

[RoySwkr]

For years now this new breed of anti-nature conservatives have sold out my state of birth to the pro pollution lobby.Hard to be positive about them or appreciate them.I would love to see Mr. bradley get on board the pro-enviromental bus but do not see that happening.

Actually you have it backwards here - it is the traditional conservatives who want to retain blazes and bridges and the "pro-nature" lobby that wants them gone. I am always very disappointed by anybody who supports a Wilderness act and when you see how the WMNF is choosing to manage them maybe you will understand why. Being a "friend of nature" and a friend of ordinary hikers is not the same thing.

 

[psmart]

...The sad thing is that most of us who care ... cannot really figure out how communicate *with* decision-making-types and volunteer to save this bridge before it's too late and decisions have been made without our input. I'm even thinking some of us could provide muscle power and/or $ (I would) ....

Based on the information you heard, I would assume the USFS is preparing a scoping document. This will include a number of alternatives, such as repair, remove, relocate, do-nothing, etc. The alternatives are then published for comment - this is the formal period for public input. A final decision is then made. The decision can be a choice of one of the original alternatives, a hybrid alternative, or a different direction all together.

Although most scoping documents indicate a "preferred alternative", this is not a foregone conclusion. I've been personally involved in a number of case where the decision was substantially influenced or a project was dropped based on public feedback. But at this stage, we pretty much have to wait for the scoping document. I'm sure the comments here will not go unnoticed.

 

[Niltiac]

Based on the information you heard, I would assume the USFS is preparing a scoping document. This will include a number of alternatives, such as repair, remove, relocate, do-nothing, etc. The alternatives are then published for comment - this is the formal period for public input. A final decision is then made. The decision can be a choice of one of the original alternatives, a hybrid alternative, or a different direction all together.

Although most scoping documents indicate a "preferred alternative", this is not a foregone conclusion. I've been personally involved in a number of case where the decision was substantially influenced or a project was dropped based on public feedback. But at this stage, we pretty much have to wait for the scoping document. I'm sure the comments here will not go unnoticed.

Great info! Where is this information posted so that we can monitor it?

 

[Becca M]

Based on the information you heard, I would assume the USFS is preparing a scoping document. This will include a number of alternatives, such as repair, remove, relocate, do-nothing, etc. The alternatives are then published for comment - this is the formal period for public input. A final decision is then made. The decision can be a choice of one of the original alternatives, a hybrid alternative, or a different direction all together.

Although most scoping documents indicate a "preferred alternative", this is not a foregone conclusion. I've been personally involved in a number of case where the decision was substantially influenced or a project was dropped based on public feedback. But at this stage, we pretty much have to wait for the scoping document. I'm sure the comments here will not go unnoticed.

thanks psmart! I hate to bring this up, but, is the same process followed for the suspension bridge? If so, I'd like to figure out how to get ahead of *this* process before it's too late as it was in that case.... OK, so maybe I haven't given up..... ~yet~

 

[Bob]

I am always very disappointed by anybody who supports a Wilderness act and when you see how the WMNF is choosing to manage them maybe you will understand why. Being a "friend of nature" and a friend of ordinary hikers is not the same thing.

Yes- every action has intended and unintended consequences.
A label or title is very often misleading.

 

[TEO]

The Pemi is NOT a pristine wilderness, it is recovering from being mostly clearcut 100 years ago. The "damage" was done by those loggers, and we largely use the railroad beds and two-sled roads they cut to harvest timber for today's trails.

I think that one of the great beauties of the Pemi is to see the extraordinary reclamation of wildness after and in spite of the comprehensive logging of the first half of the twentieth century. It gives me hope.

I have enjoyed traversing the Thoreau Falls Trail Bridge. It certainly is impressive, and obviously, convenient. But, wouldn't its removal add to the adventure of a hike in that region? Would there be increased risk? Sure. Might one have to plan hikes in the region according to the flow level? Sure. But, on the other hand, it would increase the excitement, difficulty, and wildness of hike in that area, and surely those have merit, too?

Is there a call to put in a bridge over Franconia Brook? Have people's hikes been thwarted or revised as a result of that brook's high flow?

Would the removal of the Thoreau Falls Trail Bridge hurt tourism in NH? I would be quite surprised if it did. (And, where, might I ask is the resolution protesting the NSF recreation, erroneously called parking, fees?)

Currently, I neither advocate for the bridge's repair or removal, but I will not be upset in either circumstance (assuming a removal would be completed fully and promptly). But, I remain surprised and disappointed by lack of support, even contempt, for the concept of wildness by so many on this board. We have an incredible number of relatively well-maintained, convenient, normal hiking trails. Is it so awful to strive to have a little bit of mileage that is a little more raw, that requires a bit more wit, yet is short of bushwhacking?

 

[psmart]

Great info! Where is this information posted so that we can monitor it?

All scoping documents are listed in the quarterly Schedule of Proposed Actions, posted at http://www.fs.fed.us/sopa/forest-level.php?110922

But as far as I know, no scoping has been issued for this bridge so far. Remember that this thread was triggered by unofficial information that Becca received suggesting that the FS is having internal discussions about the bridge. Since the bridge is damaged, I have no doubt this is true. But the official comment period only starts when the scoping documents are prepared and published, and we don't even know if that process has begun.

Until then, the channel for public comment or involvement on any matter is to contact the applicable district office or the supervisor's office. Contact details are at this link:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/contact/