SAR insurance - a random thought

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There is something inherently wrong with the concept that I need insurance or god help us a permit to walk in the woods. In its simplest form that is what we are talking about. An insurance policy or permit for walking.

Have humans, or is just the US, devolved to the point that they can't even walk without insurance or a permit?

Am I the only one that finds this absolutely grotesque?

Keith
 
We watched a rescue of a climber from near the summit of Kilimanjaro and learned that all guided groups were "required" to offer some of their porters when on the mountain and a rescue was needed there. I don't know if that was in writing or was just considered proper etiquette.
 
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There is something inherently wrong with the concept that I need insurance or god help us a permit to walk in the woods. In its simplest form that is what we are talking about. An insurance policy or permit for walking

I don't think we are saying have to, at least I'm not, just an option to manage rescue cost of risks exposure.

I think you're the right person to ask this of: Do you think organizations will be looking for reinbursmnet, some or all, for the costs of rescues in the near or far future?

I think it is unavoidable because costs are exploding.

I also think people will be rescued regardless of the cost or who/what is paying for it, at least I to believe/hope so.
 
Just a thought,
Could SAR costs be raised instead of "insurance' paying a $1 to park? Focus on heavy used areas like Pinkham Notch and a $1 added to places like Monadnock, and leave the "less' hiked areas still free. A small fee added to the parking pass set aside just for SAR........
 
Just a thought,
Could SAR costs be raised instead of "insurance' paying a $1 to park? Focus on heavy used areas like Pinkham Notch and a $1 added to places like Monadnock, and leave the "less' hiked areas still free. A small fee added to the parking pass set aside just for SAR........


Only if they have a picnic table.. :rolleyes::eek::rolleyes:
 
When I received my reply for Col Garabedian (F&G) a few months back, he indicated that they were looking at several possible solutions for this problem.
In my attempt to be proactive, I had made several suggestions offering ideas as to how this SAR financial dilemma could be resolved. I got the impression that they were already discussing most, if not all, of the possible solutions I had forwarded to them.
They most likely think along the same lines we do, insurance, license, charging for rescues, etc. etc. etc.
I still think that discussing it amongst ourselves has good entertainment value but unless we share our ideas with the powers that be, it doesn't do a lot to help bring this to a resolution. It cannot be easy doing this job with inadequate funding. It appears to be a big problem and it needs fixing. Why not be part of the solution?
In the grand scheme of things someone might come up with a wonderful idea that would help to resolve this. I think that they would appreciate and be grateful for hiker input. It's sending a positive message that we care and want to help solve the problem. It's also a wonderful opportunity to tell them how much we appreciate the work they do.
 
There is something inherently wrong with the concept that I need insurance or god help us a permit to walk in the woods. In its simplest form that is what we are talking about. An insurance policy or permit for walking.

Have humans, or is just the US, devolved to the point that they can't even walk without insurance or a permit?

Am I the only one that finds this absolutely grotesque?

Keith

Oh, I agree 100%.

That said I do work within the insurance sector, I don't think we'd want to touch it unless we made money at it. (what every for-profit business is trying to do, whether you sell shoelaces, flower, pets or food)

The best way to keep cost down is to have many people purchase it. If only say, 100,000 hikers purchase it at $10. a year, it's a million. How many SAR a year? Accidents in Moutainerring are just a fraction of SAR, as mentioned the Lear Jet & the young boy near Lincoln were two of the costliest & neither would have bought a policy. "What, no policy, sorry, can't look for you, do SAR take the same oath as MD's? (No but I know they want to help people, not collect policy information)

Don't think people who have little or no exposure to the woods or parks would buy it. Do you add it to all Homowner and condo policies for $20.00 and include coverage for the fee some towns & cities across America are trying to collect for responding to a rescue call? (most cases they are repealing or have issues because that's part of your tax bill) again, your adding a layer of administration in order to collect premium from everyone & then redistribute it. Whoever is doing the redistribution will want to make a profit or at least cover their cost which includes salaries and health insurance for employees.

An additional fee of $1.00 on say rooms within 50 miles of a USFS, State or Federal Park or rec area might be an idea. How do you mandate that the $1.00 stays out of the general funds of states, municipalities & a federal gov't wrestling with unfunded pensions, SS and other debts? (many have taken the $$$$$ from tobacco legislation intended for healthcare cost & anti-smoking campaigns & rolled it into the General fund, same with Lotto proceeds which in some states were supposed to be earmarked for education)

In a White Mt. example, if Gorham & N. Conway provide 65% of the trucks, ambulances, etc & the State of NH through F&G cover 35% I understand why they might take a surplus out of a pool for SAR cost, if the hiking community is good for a few months, to help cover other costs. (I don't agree with it but if they collect it they fund some of the SAR cost, I see why they think they can spend the tax dollars as they see fit.)

In the end, consumers pick up the tab, which ones? Are out of State hikers at BSP unfairly charged? Do some of the ME taxes actually support the park? I just raise the question, I don't care to see the annual budget for BSP
(out of state fishing & hunting licenses are more expensive than in state in likely all states)

In Florida, Citizens Insurance (the state funded insurer covering many coastal residents at rates that the industry think are unsound) recently raised rates on average 10% It varied on loacation & what your house is used for. If you rent your home, to others, (it's a second home or income producing property - hopefully) that rate went up the most, the cost will be added to next year's rents. In most cases, they are out of state renters who don't vote for any Florida politicians, it was a safe move politically to try & shore up their insurance pool.

How will costs for SAR be allocated back to the consumers? Insurance or fees collected by Govt.?

When one makes a profit & pays a bonus for running it efficiently, (rates too high?, what is a sufficent ROE?) the management would likely get lambasted in the press for salaries & denying claims. The other entity, IMO has not proven to be good fiscal managers. (Pay 8% for 25-30 years & get back 60-75% of the highest three years for life? With people living longer than ever, 60-75% may be paid out longer than the 8% was paid in)
 
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You need a hunter safety course to buy a hunting license, but you could buy a fishing license. Now you can donate to F&G if taking game or fish offends you.

I do buy a CT fishing license, would I need to buy one in every state I hike in? I try & see as many NE states as I can. (Look out Highpointers)

This year, I've been hiking in CT, MA, NY, NH, NJ & PA so far, it's been an off year,no ME or VT
 
Although I like Maddy's idea of helping with brain storming, I am grateful for Mike's informed analysis. Here's to self-sustaining safety without added fees!
 
I still think that discussing it amongst ourselves has good entertainment value but unless we share our ideas with the powers that be, it doesn't do a lot to help bring this to a resolution. . .

It cannot be easy doing this job with inadequate funding.

Why not be part of the solution?

It's sending a positive message that we care and want to help solve the problem. It's also a wonderful opportunity to tell them how much we appreciate the work they do

Brilliant! Great idea! :)
 
I'm not sure why this is so difficult. Divers Alert Network (DAN) provides an evacuation policy along with dive insurance for the use of a hyberbaric chamber (used to resolve "the bends" from diving). The cost is less than $100 a year and the number of divers using it has to be pretty small. This model has the same issues as SAR, although usually the diver is billed and sometimes the health insurance will cover the costs. I haven't looked at the policy in years, but it may even cover non diving accident evacuations.

So, I see a small market (people who get the insurance), covering a sevice that can be big $$$, but that has a low probability of use. This parallels SAR for hiking pretty well. The model is out there so it seems that a larger hiking advocacy group could very well institute this type of policy.

I also think that the cost would be relatively cheap because a self-selecting mode comes into play. A hiker who is thoughtful enough to get the insurance is presumably less likely to suffer a foolish "loss" and therefor be charged for SAR. Alternately you could provide a stiff, but not "killer" deductible to make the policy cheaper and only used for true emergency.

Of course I don't know of any clubs that offer this type of insurance, but I haven't really looked either. Just more food for thought I guess.
 
I don't think we are saying have to, at least I'm not, just an option to manage rescue cost of risks exposure.

I think you're the right person to ask this of: Do you think organizations will be looking for reinbursmnet, some or all, for the costs of rescues in the near or far future?

I think it is unavoidable because costs are exploding.

I also think people will be rescued regardless of the cost or who/what is paying for it, at least I to believe/hope so.

I know you aren't suggesting everyone must. And I do understand your post. It just strikes me that outsiders mostly, will do anything that they can to remove any risk associated with life. If people would use their heads this would not be a concern. But because we have made things so easy to do. Because we have been conditioned to expect that no where is to far for even the most advanced rescue (i.e. the woman who refused to move on Denali). Regardless of how grievous the error, we will go to extraordinary measures to fix whatever anyone does, regardless of how stupid.

The rescue of that man in Canada whose girlfriend/wife died, that we discussed in another thread had a hint of that.

Bottom line, there are accidents. I am willing to pay full scale for accidents. I am less willing to pay for people who, did no research. Didn't listen to people who warned them. Disregarded the warning signs etc. Those aren't accidents. You have a perfect right to continue on. Like one person so famously retorted "F**k you" when, as he was post-holing in 6 inches of snow in sneakers I tried to warn him continuing to the peak might not be wise.

If you drive drunk your insurance company, check your policy, has the right to ignore your claim if you kill someone in an accident, making you fully responsible. They will separate you from the policy in the court proceedings.

Why should incompetence or stupidity be insurable? If you insure your car against theft or fire, it doesn't protect you if you leave the keys on the seat or toss a bag of gasoline soaked flaming poo onto the floorboards.

Again, I am not singling out you or anyone else. It is the idea of it (insuring people against incompetence and stupidity) that offends me. That we have become so politically correct in this society that we can no longer tell someone. Your error was so egregious, so stupid, that you invested so little time to discover even the smallest details to do this correctly. That you primarily decided to rely on others rather than yourself as your first line of sufficiency. That we will review whether we will rescue you (depending on weather, etc) and if we do, you will be charged.

I am also tired of the thought, (again not by you) that all activities must be inherently safe and any activity were any possibility that injuries or death are possible are not acceptable. Or only acceptable if mitigated by others.

As far as that 2 year old boy wandering off. He is not chargeable, whether his parents are, is another matter entirely. Was it an accident or bad parenting? If the family was home taking care then, well kids will be kids. I wandered off at age four without my parents knowledge and helped deliver mail with the mailman. Kids being kids. If the parents were off drinking at the local brewery (not suggesting this is what happened, what if?) when he wandered off then I say yeah, charge them, criminally as well as for the rescue.

If someone isn't rescued because what they did was so egregious and dies. Would that actually save lives? Are we actually putting not just rescuers but the people we are claiming to help at risk because of our behavior? If people knew that they are not likely to get help, and people who went out unprepared had died. Would lots of other people be less likely to get themselves into a position where they needed to be helped? Would it actually save lives in the long term?

It isn't my intention to hijack the thread, but these may be questions we need to at least ask in the near future.

Yep, I understand I may be a dinosaur, a relic from the past but it strikes me as though some things have gone entirely out of whack. Especially when it comes to personal responsibility. :(

Keith
 
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I hear ya. Stupid is just part of life, can't change it, don't like it, good responsible people deal with it the best we can within our human limits. It's not fair but life isn't.

Stupid is proof there is a god because if it wasn't for him/her looking out for them they would have died off eons ago. :D
 
I'm not sure why this is so difficult. Divers Alert Network (DAN) provides an evacuation policy along with dive insurance for the use of a hyberbaric chamber (used to resolve "the bends" from diving). The cost is less than $100 a year and the number of divers using it has to be pretty small. This model has the same issues as SAR, although usually the diver is billed and sometimes the health insurance will cover the costs. I haven't looked at the policy in years, but it may even cover non diving accident evacuations.

So, I see a small market (people who get the insurance), covering a sevice that can be big $$$, but that has a low probability of use. This parallels SAR for hiking pretty well. The model is out there so it seems that a larger hiking advocacy group could very well institute this type of policy.

I also think that the cost would be relatively cheap because a self-selecting mode comes into play. A hiker who is thoughtful enough to get the insurance is presumably less likely to suffer a foolish "loss" and therefor be charged for SAR. Alternately you could provide a stiff, but not "killer" deductible to make the policy cheaper and only used for true emergency.

Of course I don't know of any clubs that offer this type of insurance, but I haven't really looked either. Just more food for thought I guess.

I'd say the number of users are very small & the cost (a hyberbaric chamber) are fairly predictable.

Divers overall, I'd say are more sensible, their rescues more predictable & the timeframe from a rescue to body recovery more limited. You don't live two days at 200 feet below the surface with no food or water (or Air) - but with a cellphone so you can call for a SAR, call for directions because you didn't bring a map, compass or watch to show you are out of air & they can't sit on the bottom & demand to be rescued. (the Denali climber wouldn't of had much choice about moving herself if she had been below sea level)

While you may dive each day for a week, each dive is a day trip, less actually. Hikers ability to wander over their navigational skill set is nearly limitless. A diver's ability to get lost is restricted by his tanks air (type of mixture & more importantly quantity) and pressure. No one goes solo to dive deeper or faster or both. The lack of air doesn't keep people off Everest but no one is diving unassisted in the worlds trenches or 5,000 feet

Who's a diver? You need specialized gear available at certain locations. I can't outfit myself at Wal-Mart. (do you purchase the insurance at dive shops? or by membership to DAN?)

Are snokelers (skin divers) and swimmers divers? They don't require a hyberbaric chamber & many coastlines have a network of SAR that towns pay for with tax dollars or fees, aka beach badges or parking fees, they are called lifeguards. Is the swimming alternative to bushwhacking, swimming in a pool or other body of water with no lifeguard. (my phone or PLB likely doesn't work underwater & even if they did, by the time SAR got to me, it would be a recovery, unless I was floating on a log, in which case I could paddle in & didn't need to call.

Divers all (should) be good swimmers, not all people using the water are though. Poor (or non) swimmers are somewhat limited to the trouble they can get into, unless they take a boat out & dump it. Liefguards at the beach will rescue a kayaker or surfboarder but they often will have someone help & they are easy to spot. (If people could live underwater, it would be similar. call to lifeguard, I'm lost & have no food, I'm behind a big rock near smaller rock near the coral, please come get me)

A person using a recreation area (State, Federal) can do so with sneakers from Wal-mart, with no gear, with the intention of just walking down to a stream they see from the road & slip & fall, it could be someone seeking safety of the woods off a storm savaged ridgeline. (do divers go diving in hurricanes & Noreasters - see divers are smarter than the dumbest hiker, whatever dumber means)

It could be a downed plane or missing child. DAN doesn't look for downed planes in the ocean, that's the Coast Guard or Navy helping the FAA

IMO, Hiking & outdoor recreation (F&G would rescue Mt. Bikers, right) & the type of SAR that our responders are being asked to do are similar in scale to both Divers, & Swimmers & probably kayakers too.

In that case, the population paying for the lifeguard infrastructure is much larger & the SAR unit itself is much larger. (Would Nat Guard equal Coast Guard? let's not go there, well does Coast Guard sometime assist in diver rescues? If so, who pays those fees, more of a boating issue which has insurance like autos)
 
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Another thing to consider if you are paying for rescue.

How long and how much money would you expect to be spent to rescue or recover a loved one if that person had insurance?

Consider the real life scenario that is playing out in Colorado right now.

VAIL, Colorado — After a fourth day of searching turned up no clues about missing hiker James Nelson on Tuesday, leaders of the rescue operation called off the search.

Link

<somewhat sarcastic>

If I’m paying for rescue insurance, I’m taking more risks and if something happens they better mobilize the army and air force to find my cold stiff body. Whatever it takes.

Oops, there go the cost of insurance.

</somewhat sarcastic>
 
I'm not sure why this is so difficult. Divers Alert Network (DAN) provides an evacuation policy along with dive insurance for the use of a hyberbaric chamber (used to resolve "the bends" from diving). The cost is less than $100 a year and the number of divers using it has to be pretty small. This model has the same issues as SAR, although usually the diver is billed and sometimes the health insurance will cover the costs. I haven't looked at the policy in years, but it may even cover non diving accident evacuations.

So, I see a small market (people who get the insurance), covering a sevice that can be big $$$, but that has a low probability of use. This parallels SAR for hiking pretty well. The model is out there so it seems that a larger hiking advocacy group could very well institute this type of policy.

I also think that the cost would be relatively cheap because a self-selecting mode comes into play. A hiker who is thoughtful enough to get the insurance is presumably less likely to suffer a foolish "loss" and therefor be charged for SAR. Alternately you could provide a stiff, but not "killer" deductible to make the policy cheaper and only used for true emergency.

Of course I don't know of any clubs that offer this type of insurance, but I haven't really looked either. Just more food for thought I guess.


After additional review, Diving, could also be called technical swimming, similar to technical climbing, either rock & ice or mountaineering. (although general mountaineering & snowshoing & winter hiking kind of blend, depending on destination & altitude)

Technical climbing & diving require specialized gear bought at speciality shops. The AAI, similar to DAN is geared more towards climbers, especially alpinist. Who's an alipinist? (Am I every time I step above treeline? thinking no)

Do divers solo? Does a similar paper to the UL write about Diving rescues? (would love to see readers comments) probably do have something similar to "Accidents in Mountaineering"

In comparison though, I'd say swimming & hiking are closer together. Thankfully we don't have that level of supervision in the woods. (teens with whistles, you're too far into the woods, stay where I can see you, high winds, stay close to the trees, everybody out, there's a bear nearby. well Griz & some types of sharks may have similar variety in diets. lets forget any Hasselhof or Pam Anderson remarks )

Maybe AMC or ADK could group sell discounted AAI memberships as part of our AMC or ADK membership. The premium numbers would be larger, I was going to say the incidents cheaper than a ride from Denali or off the Matterhorn, but that may not eb true, just less technical in nature. Thankfully in the east we've had few (if any, knock knock), helicopter crashes. They do occur in hiker & skier rescues out west though.
 
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How long and how much money would you expect to be spent to rescue or recover a loved one if that person had insurance?

Consider the real life scenario that is playing out in Colorado right now.



Link

<somewhat sarcastic>

If I’m paying for rescue insurance, I’m taking more risks and if something happens they better mobilize the army and air force to find my cold stiff body. Whatever it takes.

Oops, there go the cost of insurance.

</somewhat sarcastic>


Very sad indeed for all, it must tear at his family & at the SAR folks hearts.

As far as how long they look if we have insurance, after the first lawsuit, they will add policy wording to try and be fair (because the wording will have to be approved) and also protect the company. I'd guess somewhere between 3-7 days. (expect the option to purchase more days for more $$ but then the decision to stop or continue is out of knowledgeable SAR's hands, that's not better.)
 
A hiker who is thoughtful enough to get the insurance is presumably less likely to suffer a foolish "loss" and therefor be charged for SAR.
I would suggest just the opposite, which has apparently been noted after more safety features were added to aircraft:

Titanic syndrome - if you have an unsinkable ship, you are more likely to go at high speed through an icefield at night
 
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