Schoeller cloth garments

[skiguy]

"I think Peakbagr is still thinking old school here"....Sean, you might be right.

I do most of my hiking off trail and over the years have various gear-clothing combinations that work under various conditions. I adjust within their ranges during a trip.
Self-admitted newcomer to Schoeller cloth. So far, all of my breathables usually turn out to be less 'breathable' than advertised, which was the premise of the post. In addition to trying to pick up more info on the material. And all of you have been a real help.

My first Schoeller garment, a new MH hooded Synchro jacket, was first recommended by Rik. It has been excellent so far. My only small issue is its possible susceptiblily to tearing and abrasion. First worn on a damp and chilly whack on a CHH mountain. Over-the-head prickers and thorns for a good part of the upper mountain. Couldn't be avoided. Took a look at the Synchro at home afterward and the prickers had pulled multiple threads. While cosmetics are of little concern, the cumulative affect of many trips could degrade the exterior. Part of the reason for the full side zip question would be the possibility of quickly zipping them off over boots and snowshoes as a 2nd, shred-proof pair of pants might make it too hot.
I too would like to learn more about the various thicknesses of Schoeller you mentioned. Is there a way to tell which thickness a potential garment has and others' experience with each with various temps?
As you point out, the idea is to leave it on all day.

Thanks for engaging with some good ideas.

Alan

Lot's of good input here agreed. In the big picture different fabrics and garments are going to preform differently for each user dependent upon that users application,personal style and metabolism. I would suggest to keep trying different pieces of softshell and they will become part of your overall layering systems. IMO softshell garments donot totally replace what we have had but actually compliment what we already have.

Now if DougPaul will help me interpret THIS maybe we can have a bit more of a discussion.

 

[Doc McPeak]

DougPaul, which Schoeller products do you hike in?

Discuss the issues, don't attack the people.
Doug

Is there some type of covert attack in that question?

We were (especially those who hike in Schoeller) discussing real world experiences with the product. It was a simple question relating to the issue. I had no problems with your thoughts on the subject, and you bring up some good points. Yet, I was having a hard time deciphering parts of your statements for they seem to be devoid of any real world experience with Schoeller, so thought I would ask for I could be wrong?

And back on topic. Alan, I have hiked in Gore-tex, XCR, H2NO, and other proprietary "breathables" and will only call Dryskin Extreme 3X truly breathable. The difference is that great-- night and day. To me. As always everybody's own wet/dry issues are a little different.

As for durability, my Cloudveil Ice Floe (later the Black Ice) hasn't lost a stitch in five winters. I am a big guy and was pretty brutal on bushwhacks to Cheney, North River, Henderson, Hough, RPR, etc. and the full 46W hasn't dented it. At all. The weave on Dryskin doesn't seen to allow it to unravel into loose threads. Actually does Rik have a Schoeller jacket? I thought his MH jacket was one of those laminate windshirts? Those are not ideal for bushwhacking and will tear. I have a hooded Marmot just like his (or one he had) which I never take into the scratchy stuff.

Anyway, Alan, if you want to pm me for more info, feel free.
Over and out.

 

[DougPaul]

Now if DougPaul will help me interpret THIS maybe we can have a bit more of a discussion.

Nice reference from what appears to be an unbiased source...

These are the results of some tests of water vapor permeability of some waterproof-breathable fabrics.

It looks like the graphs show the same data presented differently. The top graph is the resistance (area/flow_rate) and the lower graph is flow_rate/area. Small numbers are good on the upper graph and large numbers are good on the lower graph.

The info is fine as it is, but there are some useful datapoints missing, such as no fabric, windshell fabric, rainshell fabric, a layer of moisture wicking (shirt/long underwear) material, a layer of breathable fleece, a layer of non-breathable fleece, etc. (Maybe even a layer of (no gasping allowed...) cotton.)`

These data also only present one side of the problem--water vapor transport. We also need to know about liquid water blocking and wind blocking capabilities. (There might be more data at the source--so far, I've only looked at the contents of the above link.)

Note also that the test conditions are 30C and a flow rate of 2000 cm3/min. If one guesses a 10cm x 10cm test chamber area, this = 20cm/min = 12 meters/hour = .007 mph or a very gentle breeze. (Walking would create far more wind...) The water vapor permeability might also be vastly different at different temps. (The titles of some of the references suggest that this was also studied.)

Doug

 

[Peakbagr]

Sean,

Now I'm really confused. I thought Rik's synchro jacket was made of a Schoeller laminate. The the MH Synchro. Its just great for shedding water and breathable. Just went to look at the material that came with the jacket and didn't see where it said Schoeller.
With everyone's own proprietary name for things, hard to keep track.

 

[skiguy]

Nice reference from what appears to be an unbiased source...

These are the results of some tests of water vapor permeability of some waterproof-breathable fabrics.

It looks like the graphs show the same data presented differently. The top graph is the resistance (area/flow_rate) and the lower graph is flow_rate/area. Small numbers are good on the upper graph and large numbers are good on the lower graph.

The info is fine as it is, but there are some useful datapoints missing, such as no fabric, windshell fabric, rainshell fabric, a layer of moisture wicking (shirt/long underwear) material, a layer of breathable fleece, a layer of non-breathable fleece, etc. (Maybe even a layer of (no gasping allowed...) cotton.)`

These data also only present one side of the problem--water vapor transport. We also need to know about liquid water blocking and wind blocking capabilities. (There might be more data at the source--so far, I've only looked at the contents of the above link.)

Note also that the test conditions are 30C and a flow rate of 2000 cm3/min. If one guesses a 10cm x 10cm test chamber area, this = 20cm/min = 12 meters/hour = .007 mph or a very gentle breeze. (Walking would create far more wind...) The water vapor permeability might also be vastly different at different temps. (The titles of some of the references suggest that this was also studied.)

Doug

Are these graphs somewhat simply trying to show the breathability of the particular fabrics in a rather static environement?

 

[Paradox]

Let me add my $0.02. Chip and I just got back from an overnighter on the Carter Range. He had a Schoeller type Mammut soft shell jacket and I was in a very nice, expensive, Loki soft shell. The daytime temps were in the 18 degree F range. The only functional difference (I could see) was that mine had pit zips and his did not. I was a sweating, overheated/chilled wreck, and Chip (son of a gun) always looked dry, warm/cool, and happy.

This morning my jacket was like icy cardboard, and his was ready to go.

 

[skiguy]

Let me add my $0.02. Chip and I just got back from an overnighter on the Carter Range. He had a Schoeller type Mammut soft shell jacket and I was in a very nice, expensive, Loki soft shell. The daytime temps were in the 18 degree F range. The only functional difference (I could see) was that mine had pit zips and his did not. I was a sweating, overheated/chilled wreck, and Chip (son of a gun) always looked dry, warm/cool, and happy.

This morning my jacket was like icy cardboard, and his was ready to go.

What type of Loki Jacket and what type of material?

 

[Paradox]

What type of Loki Jacket and what type of material?

It say's "S-O-L-V-E-D" on the tag. Materials" 35% Nylon, 5% Spandex, 12% Polyurethane, 48% Polyester, made in Taiwan.

 

[DougPaul]

Are these graphs somewhat simply trying to show the breathability of the particular fabrics in a rather static environement?

Not sure what you mean by "static environment".

If you mean almost no wind, then that is the given test condition. I have no idea if his test equipment could work at a flow rate equivalent to a 5mph (etc) breeze.

If you mean unchanging conditions, then unchanging conditions make experiments much easier and more repeatable.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

This morning my jacket was like icy cardboard, and his was ready to go.

Now we need you and Chip to rush out and repeat your trip except that you switch jackets... We need an adequately controlled experiment.

Doug

 

[TCD]

Thanks for the spelling, DougPaul, and the link, dms. All the retailers I have seen have spelled it Scholler (with the umlaut not shown) so that's how I thought it was spelled. Maybe their advertising software doesn't print umlauts!

So I was away for the weekend, and I missed all the personal attacks on this totally innocent thread about fabric (no pun intended). But the fabric still works great.

 

[Paradox]

Now we need you and Chip to rush out and repeat your trip except that you switch jackets... We need an adequately controlled experiment.

Doug

You know, I was half seriously considering that. I will be ordering a mid-weight Schoeller jacket, as soon as I have studied up on it. This thread was(is) great.

 

[Chip]

Let me add my $0.02. Chip and I just got back from an overnighter on the Carter Range. He had a Schoeller type Mammut soft shell jacket and I was in a very nice, expensive, Loki soft shell. The daytime temps were in the 18 degree F range. The only functional difference (I could see) was that mine had pit zips and his did not. I was a sweating, overheated/chilled wreck, and Chip (son of a gun) always looked dry, warm/cool, and happy.

This morning my jacket was like icy cardboard, and his was ready to go.

I was wearing this jacket in Medium Lemongrass and this technical tee in Barley with rag wool gloves and a 48lb pack.
Paradox may have been fine with just that tee and his jacket. We were working our aged butts off all flippin day. I do like the jacket though. I was also wearing these pants with just nylon/spandex briefs all day. They worked well also.

Edited:

Can someone provide more information as to whether there are different weights, thicknesses, qualities for Schoeller Cloth garments?

The Mammut Laser jacket is Schoeller WB-400 with 3XDry. The Mammut Champ Pants are "Schoeller Dryskin Extreme Bi-Stretch w/ Cordura reinforced knee and ankle panels & CoolMax wicking inner face".
I'm not sure how to compare the weights/quality. The jacket material is heavier/thicker feeling. Not sure about 'whacking durablity on either. If you think there's something specific I can tell you about these garments, let me know.

 

[giggy]

I have the 2005 loki softshell as well and have had good luck with it on overnights, etc..

 

[Peakbagr]

To add to my earlier post, a further clarification. The Mountain Hardware Synchro garments are NOT Schoeller, but a laminate with properties very similar to Schoeller. The tech folks at MH are sending me a .pdf of the specs.

I've received a few messages from folks who are appreciative of all the good information posted on this thread. Would it be possible to clarify:
1. Is there a standard name for the various thicknesses of Schoeller and the temp/weather ranges where they work the best?
2. Can folks list the various gear companies and garments currently made of Schoeller that you'd recommend?

If some of this is redundant, it seems like this is a new clothing type that was new to me until recently, and apparently to many others.

Thanks for all the good talk and information.

PB

 

[CharlieF]

Schoeller

I have a pair of Beyond Fleece "Cold Play" pants made with Schoeller Dry Skin fabric. They are the best piece of winter clothes I own. Beyond Fleeces' goods are all custom made. You can get all the zippers or pockets you want.. you just have to pay for them.
http://beyondclothing.com/customer-service/faqs/
Disclaimer: I do not work for or own stock on Beyond Fleece.

CharlieF

 

[Peakbagr]

Charlie,

That is just a great site. How is the workmanship and durability?

 

[GlennS]

I have a pair of EMS pants made out of Schoeller Dryskin. They are my top choice for most winter conditions. I have found that the are not adequate for above treeline travel. The wind will penetrate the fabric leaving you very uncomfortable in places you do not want to be uncomfortable in.

You don't have to spend a fortune on pants made of Schoeller material. I bought mine for about $70. I liked the first pair so much, I bought a 2nd pair when I saw them in the clearance rack.

Glenn

 

[una_dogger]

FWIW, women's REI Mistrals are on clearance at REI for $63 bucks. I almost picked up a pair in Framingham today but the wind rating is only shown for blocking 16mph -- so while they look like a great all around winter aerobic activity pant, they aren't fiercer than what I currently own.

Have been hearing really good stuff about Mountain Hardware's Synchro Pants and Jackets.

 

[Paradox]

Have been hearing really good stuff about Mountain Hardware's Synchro Pants and Jackets.

I just did the carter range in the MH Synchro pants. I found them great, my legs were very comfortable the whole trip, the full zips made a difference. They seemed to block the wind quite well and no damage despite falling numerous times on Saturday.