Seen along the trails on Adams today

[Tom_Murphy]

Not permanently, but laying there unable to move, activating a button, doesn't mean one is able to light a stove, crawl into a tent, put on warm clothes, and wait it out.

What killed her was leaving the parking lot, not all the missing gear...IMO.

Yes, you are correct that some accidents are unsurvivable no matter what preparation you take. The recent death may (or may not) have been in that catergory.

Can we agree on a hypothetical trip in order to move past that disagreement ?

A solo traverse of the Northern Presidentals in the winter in severe enough weather that you can not be sure you will encounter anyone else but not so severe that you need to cancel the trip at the trailhead.

Or is that a trip you should never do?

Should you be prepared to be benighted due to a broken ankle on a solo day hike?

If you want to be prepared to be benighted due to a broken ankle on a solo traverse of the Northern Presidentals in the winter in severe enough weather that you can not be sure you will encounter anyone else, what should you bring with you?

My answer was: avy shovel, sleeping pad, sleeping bag, bivy, snowshoes, food, stove, and a compass.

Thanks.

 

[dug]

Yes, you are correct that some accidents are unsurvivable no matter what preparation you take. The recent death may (or may not) have been in that catergory.

Can we agree on a hypothetical trip in order to move past that disagreement ?

A solo traverse of the Northern Presidentals in the winter in severe enough weather that you can not be sure you will encounter anyone else but not so severe that you need to cancel the trip at the trailhead.

Or is that a trip you should never do?

Should you be prepared to be benighted due to a broken ankle on a solo day hike?

If you want to be prepared to be benighted due to a broken ankle on a solo traverse of the Northern Presidentals in the winter in severe enough weather that you can not be sure you will encounter anyone else, what should you bring with you?

My answer was: avy shovel, sleeping pad, sleeping bag, bivy, snowshoes, food, stove, and a compass.

Thanks.

I would carry most of that, if it were me...except the sleeping pad and shovel.

The crux of the argument is carrying too much (and what that is open to debate) only slows you down, making the need for overnight gear my applicable. My opinion is that I would need to survive the night on my own, and would carry that.

 

[Brambor]

No sleeping pad? In those temps? I've done survival sleeping like that on my belly with both hands in my crotch but I'd rather take the pad... ;-)

I would carry most of that, if it were me...except the sleeping pad and shovel.

The crux of the argument is carrying too much (and what that is open to debate) only slows you down, making the need for overnight gear my applicable. My opinion is that I would need to survive the night on my own, and would carry that.

 

[dug]

I carry a 2'x2' piece of closed foam. That and my pack will be enough to survive, not thrive.

But, to be clear, in those temps I wouldn't be there

 

[Brambor]

that would do fine for emergency.

 

[DougPaul]

I carry a 2'x2' piece of closed foam. That and my pack will be enough to survive, not thrive.

That is enough if you can sit up. I had one when I had my accident (broken femur and hip, on snow) and decided that I should have brought a full size pad. (Fortunately I was able to sit up.)

Yes, you can use your pack under you as insulation or empty it and put your feet in it. But a full size pad is better (but bigger and heavier).


FWIW, Dugal Haston and Doug Scott bivouaced in a snow cave near the South Summit of Everest (28,750 ft) in 1975. Scott had left his down clothing* below and spent the night enlarging their cave (ie exercising) to keep warm. Haston had his down suit. (They didn't have pads or sleeping bags.) By staying active, they were able avoid frostbite in the -50C (estimated) temps and continued down the next morning.
* Full down suits are pretty normal clothing at those altitudes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_British_Mount_Everest_Southwest_Face_expedition
https://www.himalayanclub.org/hj/34/1/everest-south-west-face-climbed/

FWIW2: Tom Horbein, Willi Unsoeld, Barry Bishop, and Lute Jerstad bivouaced in the open between the South Summit of Everest and the South Col (~28,000 ft) in 1963. It was a cold, but fortunately windless night. Three of the four suffered frostbite and two lost toes. http://www.adventure-journal.com/2013/10/the-aj-list-9-legendary-bivouacs/

We should note that these examples feature uninjured elite climbers. Both bivouacs were done without supplementary oxygen.

Doug

 

[Remix]

Don't forget about pine branches to lay on; I assume NHFG won't write you a ticket for using them in an emergency.

 

[Mike P.]

That is enough if you can sit up. I had one when I had my accident (broken femur and hip, on snow) and decided that I should have brought a full size pad. (Fortunately I was able to sit up.)

Yes, you can use your pack under you as insulation or empty it and put your feet in it. But a full size pad is better (but bigger and heavier).


FWIW, Dugal Haston and Doug Scott bivouaced in a snow cave near the South Summit of Everest (28,750 ft) in 1975. Scott had left his down clothing* below and spent the night enlarging their cave (ie exercising) to keep warm. Haston had his down suit. (They didn't have pads or sleeping bags.) By staying active, they were able avoid frostbite in the -50C (estimated) temps and continued down the next morning.
* Full down suits are pretty normal clothing at those altitudes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_British_Mount_Everest_Southwest_Face_expedition
https://www.himalayanclub.org/hj/34/1/everest-south-west-face-climbed/

FWIW2: Tom Horbein, Willi Unsoeld, Barry Bishop, and Lute Jerstad bivouaced in the open between the South Summit of Everest and the South Col (~28,000 ft) in 1963. It was a cold, but fortunately windless night. Three of the four suffered frostbite and two lost toes. http://www.adventure-journal.com/2013/10/the-aj-list-9-legendary-bivouacs/

We should note that these examples feature uninjured elite climbers. Both bivouacs were done without supplementary oxygen.

Doug

Thank you for weighing in with your first hand experience.

 

[dug]

That is enough if you can sit up. I had one when I had my accident (broken femur and hip, on snow) and decided that I should have brought a full size pad. (Fortunately I was able to sit up.)

Yes, you can use your pack under you as insulation or empty it and put your feet in it. But a full size pad is better (but bigger and heavier).

Most definitely true, and it's a balance between saving weight vs. saving life, vs. comfort. Again, I wouldn't be surviving in -60 degree weather, I have a woodstove and a TV for that kind of weather. Without a doubt, though, I think some type of cold ground separator is very important.

On a side note, I do know of two skiers who had to survive a night lost in the woods in Vermont after skiing down a wrong drainage. They were not injured (key point here), but they stood on the mats and packs all night against a tree. While bored and cold, they were comfortable enough. (I don't recall how cold the night was, though)