Self Diagnosis for the "Umbles" ?

[DougPaul]

I have often wonderered if the possible "irregular heartbeat" symptom can become a permanant condition as a result.

I am not aware of any reports supporting this effect. If it were a serious risk, then hypothermia wouldn't be used in some heart surgery. Hearts for transplant are, I believe, transported on ice, so the organ itself can withstand cooling to near freezing for short periods.

Doug

 

[KayakDan]

Dave is absolutely correct about this. One of the docs that taught one of the hypothermia classes that I attended stated "I never treated anyone for hypothermia who wasn't also dehydrated."

Keith

In my own case when it happened,when I thought about it afterwards,it made sense.
Many of our group got sick,and vomiting/diarrea-myself included(lose fluid)
I paddled hard in rough water for 3 miles(perspiring)
landed on shore and had a cold beer first thing(alcohol-dehydrates)
wind kicked in,I,m in a damp shortie wetsuit and I'm exhausted-and obviously-dehydrated.
It hit so fast it was amazing.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

While true, this is, IMO, a bit of a red herring.

Assuming that you start with adequate water in your system:

If you are adequately hydrated. I think of it as more of a chicken or egg type thing instead of a red herring. Which came first your dehydration or your hypothermia. Either can lead to the other under the correct conditions. Your description of what happens when you vasoconstrict is exactly correct though which exacerbates the dehydration.

Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I have often wonderered if the possible "irregular heartbeat" symptom can become a permanant condition as a result.
I have talked it over with a doctor or two, but not subject specific to hypothermia .

I am not sure what type of "irregular heartbeat" you are talking about. I also am unaware of any heart related problems due to hypothermia after recovery. Usually your kidneys are what fail or suffer damage first if you suffer organ damage. If that is bad enough I don’t believe you usually survive. As Doug says it is actually used as part of some medical procedures in some heart related procedures.

I assume you have an "irregular heartbeat" that is why you are asking about it. I will also tell you that you really need to ask this type of a question to your doctor. He has your history and tests and knows the type of "irregular heartbeat" that you have. He is really the only person who can answer this question intelligently.

Good luck,
Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

In my own case when it happened,when I thought about it afterwards,it made sense.
Many of our group got sick,and vomiting/diarrea-myself included(lose fluid)
I paddled hard in rough water for 3 miles(perspiring)
landed on shore and had a cold beer first thing(alcohol-dehydrates)
wind kicked in,I,m in a damp shortie wetsuit and I'm exhausted-and obviously-dehydrated.
It hit so fast it was amazing.

Wholly cow. You were begging for it.

I wish you told me you were going to do this. I would have liked to have come along. I could have made a doumentary.

Keith

 

[spider solo]

thanks.. not to worry

It's true I had an irregular heart beat and have been duly repaired a time or two... that's why I was wondering about after effects of hypothermia.

Doug Paul makes a good point that they ship the heart nearly frozen. Logic would lead one to think it would equate with a hypothermia situation, but maybe not.

For me the irregularity was generated close to but outside the heart, I know, I know, it's highly irregular ( ok a little play on words there).
Many thanks to the doctors, but, it is hard to find one to converse with subject specific on the causes...many on how to fix things up.

...interesting to see it's the kidneys that would most likely be the ones to show a problem if any.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

spider -

Regardless of whether someone has performed a 'valid scientific study', there are some things beyond dispute which support/enhance circulation. Obviously, a strong, regular heartbeat is one, and adequate blood volume is another. If one's circulatory system is compromised in any way, due to blocked arteries/veins, the heart beats irregularly, or the heart doesn't beat as strongly because it's been damaged by a heart attack or perhaps a congenital defect - the list goes on. And, if you're not adequately hydrated then blood volume is decreased, so even if the circulatory system is in top shape you may be compromised -

As someone who also has cardiac issues, I try to read and keep and open mind to everything that has an impact on hiking/mountaineering/cold weather issues. Still, I also trust my own intelligence, experience and common sense.

After all - look at the issue of eggs and cholesterol. How many times have the medical/scientific community flip/flopped on that one? 4 times? 6? 20?

Much of the so-called 'scientific' approach to Western research tries to reach conclusions after studying a single variable. Yet, we all know that life is much more complicated than that.

In the final analysis the impact an irregular heartbeat has will probably vary by individual since level and location of circulatory blockages varies greatly by individual, and your relative state of fitness will likely be a factor. I know the more I hike (within reason) the easier it is to get up the hill, and the less food and water I require. So, if I haven't hiked in 6 weeks I put myself at greater risk than when I get at least twice a week.

And, with all due respect to Doug - whether organs are put on ice prior to transplantation - what has that got to do with anything?!!!

 

[DougPaul]

And, with all due respect to Doug - whether organs are put on ice prior to transplantation - what has that got to do with anything?!!!

Spider's question was about hypothermia damaging the heart. This says that the heart itself can withstand more cold than it would be subjected to in a live hypothermia victim. It does not say anything about the human system as a whole when in a hypothermic state.

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

It's true I had an irregular heart beat and have been duly repaired a time or two... that's why I was wondering about after effects of hypothermia.

Doug Paul makes a good point that they ship the heart nearly frozen. Logic would lead one to think it would equate with a hypothermia situation, but maybe not.

For me the irregularity was generated close to but outside the heart, I know, I know, it's highly irregular ( ok a little play on words there).
Many thanks to the doctors, but, it is hard to find one to converse with subject specific on the causes...many on how to fix things up.

...interesting to see it's the kidneys that would most likely be the ones to show a problem if any.

To make sure I expressed myself properly. You can definitely have sinus bradycardia, dysrythmias and other heart rhythm problems including atrial fibrillation and eventually ventricular fibrillation ending in asystole. I have seen all of these rhythms, can identify most, and in some cases I can treat or know the course of treatment at my level. There are many more I don't know and have no clue about. Some rhythms are dangerous and others you can live a very long life with. When I need to get my medical information I check with our e.r. doctors. I have excellant luck getting good medical information from our doctors. I assume that those abnormal rhythms all eventually go away if you recover. But again, I would ask a real doctor about this.

Hope this helps,
Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

whether organs are put on ice prior to transplantation

I know that this was probably just "an expression". And at the risk of making an axx of myself. I just want to make sure that no one interprets that literally. Any body part, including organs and amputations (this is why I bring it up) should never actually be put on ice. The best way to package them is to place them in something like a zip lock or saran wrap to isolate the part from the water and then place in an ice water solution or as cold water as you can get. Teeth on the other hand, should be placed immediately back into the hole they came from without touching the root if the patient is conscious or at least held in their own mouth if there is no risk of aspiration. If they are unconscious then place it in some milk. There is also a dental solution that I don't remember the name of off the top of my head that is very hard to find. Water will work, just not nearly as good. Replace it back as soon as you can.

I just didn't want that motza hanging out there.
Keith

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I know that this was probably just "an expression". And at the risk of making an axx of myself. I just want to make sure that no one interprets that literally. Any body part, including organs and amputations (this is why I bring it up) should never actually be put on ice. The best way to package them is to place them in something like a zip lock or saran wrap to isolate the part from the water and then place in an ice water solution or as cold water as you can get. Teeth on the other hand, should be placed immediately back into the hole they came from without touching the root if the patient is conscious or at least held in their own mouth if there is no risk of aspiration. If they are unconscious then place it in some milk. There is also a dental solution that I don't remember the name of off the top of my head that is very hard to find. Water will work, just not nearly as good. Replace it back as soon as you can.

I just didn't want that motza hanging out there.
Keith

Thanks for info, Doug. I knew about the tooth business but had forgotten. And Doug - couldn't resist busting your chops. Chilling organs, including the heart, slows their deterioration, but I don't think it 'proves' much of anything per se, as it's my understanding that during open heart surgery the body's temp is deliberately lowered in order to reduce the heart rate (among other things). I don't know if this is still routinely or not, but I read an article recently of a little girl who had heart surgery and her body temp as lowered to 60F, which is a helluva lot colder than the average hypothermia victim. To the degree that this is representative of most/all heart surgeries I'll leave to others. I guess my point (besides being a bit mischievous) is that what can be done in a controlled medical environment is sometimes quite different than on a mountain.

 

[spider solo]

stumble ,mumble, grumble...

Think I'll search around a bit to see if there is any long term follow ups done on the subject.
If not maybe it's a good subject for someone's future doctorate thesis.

(I know when you have a roomfull of doctors who keep saying "wow look at that...never seen that before" that it is not the right time to be asking.)

Have I missed any of the "umbles" ...?
..hmmm....fumbles...perhaps

 

[OverUnder]

Grumble

If "grumble" is one of the umbles, then I know some hikers who were hypothermic for months at a time.

 

[KayakDan]

Wholly cow. You were begging for it.

I wish you told me you were going to do this. I would have liked to have come along. I could have made a doumentary.

Keith

Oh yeah....it was great fun...."whole lotta shakin goin on!"
Sorry you missed it!

It was my own fault,of course....how could I resist a cold Kalik?

At least when I recovered-I was still in the Bahamas!!!!!!!

 

[runnynose]

irreg hr

It's true I had an irregular heart beat and have been duly repaired a time or two... that's why I was wondering about after effects of hypothermia.

in response to the above, a history of hypothermia would not trigger an irregular hr at a later date. different arrhythmias are triggered by many different mechanisms. often a specific cause is not identified, altho they are certainly hunted for. whomever treated you might wager a hypothesis, again dependent on the specific arrhythmia. electrolyte imbalances, thyroid problems, ischemia (bad arteries), structural abnormalities, drugs, even alcohol in some instances, are a handful of causes to give you an idea but the list goes on and on.....

in response the earlier topic of the thread, early signs of hypothermia, i agree with earlier posts that shivering is your best signal. it should make you stop short and assess....am i in need of dry clothes, more layers, liquid, food, lower altitude, shelter, or is it time to turn around. often times we shiver at a summit but know we will be out of the wind shortly. shivering should cue assessment of the situation and whether a change is needed and how imminently.

 

[DougPaul]

in response the earlier topic of the thread, early signs of hypothermia, i agree with earlier posts that shivering is your best signal. it should make you stop short and assess....am i in need of dry clothes, more layers, liquid, food, lower altitude, shelter, or is it time to turn around. often times we shiver at a summit but know we will be out of the wind shortly. shivering should cue assessment of the situation and whether a change is needed and how imminently.

A possible sequence of events for Darren's epic (this is speculation on my part):
* overheats, gets insulation damp
* high exertion level keeps heat up, but burns fuel
* Fuel runs out
* Rapid body temp drop.

In a case like this the person might pass though the warning period very rapidly. And if you are in an otherwise tense situation, you might need to deal with other things before you can attend to your thermal and fuel needs.


When I used to ice climb, we used to alternate being hot and cold. While belaying, you would stand around and get cold. Then you would climb for a while during which you become hot and frequently sweat into your insulation. Now that you are damp, repeat... Insulation changes in the middle of a climb are very difficult so we just dressed for the average and very rarely changed anything during the climb. I learned a good bit about the temp range and moisture tolerance of clothing back in those days.

Doug