Sleeping in cars allowed at Lafayette Place?

[ChrisB]

For me, arriving at 11 PM, sleeping in my car at a trailhead and starting a hike at 5 AM doesn't make sense. I much prefer to arrive earlier, stay at a WMNF or state campground or hike a few miles into the woods to camp. That way, I don't have to worry about being kicked out at 2 AM by the authorities. There are also a few trailheads where I've found decent tentsites about 1/4 mile away and I'll stay at those when convenient.

With the demise of joints like Hikers Paradise, and the high cost of AMC accommodations, trampers have few alternatives if they want a cheap place to crash the night before a hike.

Dormitory lodging seems a difficult business to sustain. But a clean, well run and inexpensive operation might succeed. Use your own sleeping, have access to a bathroom and get up early and go.

The AMC is the logical entity to run such an operation: A dorm in Gorham, another in Twin Mountain and maybe a third in Bartlett. $15 a night with free ear plugs. Two night maximum.

Am I crazy or what?

 

[JustJoe]

A dorm in Gorham, another in Twin Mountain and maybe a third in Bartlett. $15 a night with free ear plugs. Two night maximum.

Am I crazy or what?

Not sure what it would cost to even break even in todays ridiculous real estate market. But it would be a far cry higher than $15 a night. $15 might get you (1 square) of TP. Your Avatar location says it all.

 

[jfb]

With the demise of joints like Hikers Paradise, and the high cost of AMC accommodations, trampers have few alternatives if they want a cheap place to crash the night before a hike.

At places like Wildwood or Sugarloaf campgrounds, it's only $20.00 per night and many sites can be reserved. With my pass, it's half price and if I share the cost with a partner that brings the cost down to $5.00 per night. Even Lafayette Place campground is only $25.00 per night for a site, and people can sleep in their cars without being bothered.

 

[DayTrip]

At places like Wildwood or Sugarloaf campgrounds, it's only $20.00 per night and many sites can be reserved. With my pass, it's half price and if I share the cost with a partner that brings the cost down to $5.00 per night. Even Lafayette Place campground is only $25.00 per night for a site, and people can sleep in their cars without being bothered.

I don't really think the cost is the issue. It's availability. It's damn near impossible to book a camp site on a FRI/SAT/SUN around the Whites unless you do it well in advance. I haven't checked on much this year except up in Baxter but over the past few years most of the campgrounds I used to stay at (like Sugarloaf II) were booked solid every time I checked.

 

[jfb]

I don't really think the cost is the issue. It's availability. It's damn near impossible to book a camp site on a FRI/SAT/SUN around the Whites unless you do it well in advance. I haven't checked on much this year except up in Baxter but over the past few years most of the campgrounds I used to stay at (like Sugarloaf II) were booked solid every time I checked.

It used to be worse back before it was even possible to reserve campsites. But, that's when my suggestion to find suitable tent sites 1/4 mi. from a few trailheads is most useful. If you spend a hour or so exploring some of those areas, you'll probably find some suitable spots that can easily be hiked to at 11 PM.

 

[TCD]

Exactly.

For much of today's population, convenience is a higher priority than cost. If you put obstacles in the way, a good portion of the users will try whatever kind of workaround they can think of (like "stealth" camping).

Also, a major element of convenience is being able to "go" on the spur of the moment, when the weather looks good, and not have to plan way in advance. If you put in place a system that requires committing way in advance, lots of people will try to work around it.

 

[skiguy]

Appalachia was looking like a Dead Festival today.

 

[Quietman]

What is stopping a place like the former Lowes store(just for an example) from charging people $10 a night to allow them to sleep in their cars overnight, and have a couple of porta-pottys behind the building. It's private property......

Just throwing it out there.

 

[peakbagger]

What is stopping a place like the former Lowes store(just for an example) from charging people $10 a night to allow them to sleep in their cars overnight, and have a couple of porta-pottys behind the building. It's private property......

Just throwing it out there.

Planning and zoning for one, most towns would require a location zoned for this use, effectively it is a campground. Local property taxes for the land will most likely go up as its a "campground" (business use). Planning and zoning is somewhat recent to north county towns (usually within the last 20 to 30 years, most campgrounds in northern NH are grandfathered uses that pre-exist the planning and zoning. Many towns do not have local police, barely have fire protection and they really do not want "transients" in town overnight.

The state will want its cut (8.5% room and meals tax). RMC and AMC has dodged that bullet a few times. Add in business liability insurance, as otherwise if someone gets hurt on the grounds the owner gets sued up to limits of their ability to pay. There will most likely be a need to staff the site at least part time as a condition of getting a permit to operate from the town.

Unless it's an altruistic owner who wants to help out hikers its probably going to cost the owner to officially allow this, No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[JoshandBaron]

What is stopping a place like the former Lowes store(just for an example) from charging people $10 a night to allow them to sleep in their cars overnight, and have a couple of porta-pottys behind the building. It's private property......

Just throwing it out there.

Density requirements. 600 ft per tentsite or 1000 ft per vehicle site is what NH law states. Local laws are sometimes more restrictive

 

[Rhody Seth]

If you really wanted to get after it you'd start your trip at 11pm and get an extra night in the woods. Most of my trips start at night and that extra sleep in the woods makes a trip much more effective if part of your goal is to decompress.

Nah, I'm not interested in driving 4-5 hours, then hiking in 1/4 mile and trying to set up a hammock in the dark. And at any rate, if I'm crashing at the trailhead it's likely because I'm planning to do something long, light & fast the next day. When I backpack the super early start isn't necessarily something I'm after.

I wonder human waste --the collateral damage of trailhead camping-- is the real issue. For trailheads not equipped with permanent toilets or seasonal porta potties, what's a hiker to do?

That's a good point and likely the main reason it's not allowed. I always make use of facilities on the drive up. I would never crap at the trailhead and would hike in if need be.

For me, arriving at 11 PM, sleeping in my car at a trailhead and starting a hike at 5 AM doesn't make sense. I much prefer to arrive earlier, stay at a WMNF or state campground or hike a few miles into the woods to camp. That way, I don't have to worry about being kicked out at 2 AM by the authorities.

That's cool. You do you. I often do use motels and hostels when I'm up there. But if I'm planning a long ultra day, I often prefer to just get to the trailhead, crash for a couple hours and then start. Then set up accommodations for that night.

For me it comes down to the Letter of the Law vs. the Spirit of the Law. I fully recognize that I'm breaking the law. People have provided some good reasons here why the law is in place (human waste, avoiding a tailgate/party situation and the leave-no-trace issues it entails). But when I'm parking there I'm just pulling in and going to sleep. I try to be a good steward as I would anytime I'm at the trailhead. So while I may not be following the letter of the law my being there affects no one else so I don't have a problem doing it when the situation warrants.

 

[JoshandBaron]

For me it comes down to the Letter of the Law vs. the Spirit of the Law. I fully recognize that I'm breaking the law. People have provided some good reasons here why the law is in place (human waste, avoiding a tailgate/party situation and the leave-no-trace issues it entails).

Ironically enough, I'm not sure it does much to prevent a tailgate situation. My weekends lately are a Friday night start to some sort of interesting feature a couple few miles in with the bivy or hammock, up with sunrise and back to the truck where I pull out the galley and cook breakfast before heading somewhere else close by for a longer overnight. Early arrivals at the trailhead often think I've camped there. Tailgating the Lincoln Woods parking lot on a Sunday afternoon in leafpeeper season after a long hike is probably worth the drive on its own.

 

[jfb]

But if I'm planning a long ultra day, I often prefer to just get to the trailhead, crash for a couple hours and then start. Then set up accommodations for that night.

I'd be more likely to start my drive at 7 AM, arrive at the trailhead before noon, do my hike and drive to the campground after dark.

 

[TEO]

There is just no way they will ever make this legal/OK. It is happening on a regular basis at every trail-head I've been using, over the past year or 2. [snip]
Of this white vehicle wasn't exactly stealthy at the Piper Trail-Head about 10 days ago.

View attachment 6853

Last year people were straight up tenting on the grass at Livermore. Given that there are at least 3 campgrounds, a million dispersed sites, and a forest headquarters within pissing distance I was a bit surprised.

These examples are unfortunate, and are could lead to a crackdown, if there are the resources to do so.

I don't really think the cost is the issue. It's availability. It's damn near impossible to book a camp site on a FRI/SAT/SUN around the Whites unless you do it well in advance. I haven't checked on much this year except up in Baxter but over the past few years most of the campgrounds I used to stay at (like Sugarloaf II) were booked solid every time I checked.

In addition to this, I would suggest that difficulty in getting a parking spot on a weekend is also exacerbating the issue.

It all comes down to overuse and how that is addressed and managed. Unfortunately the only good answer I can come up with is to regulate the number of new hikers allowed each year. Restrict it to a number half that of the number of hikers dying and retiring from the activity. People who have a history of hiking would be allowed to continue, but a lottery would have to be created to determine who start to hike for the first time. Perhaps a "minor league" or "hiking trial phase" could be set up, where new hikers have to are allowed at higher numbers in local and state parks and have to complete a certain number of walks or hikes before they enter the full-hiker-status lottery. Maybe the COVID vaccine microchips can be put to a good use after all.

 

[skiguy]

These examples are unfortunate, and are could lead to a crackdown, if there are the resources to do so.



In addition to this, I would suggest that difficulty in getting a parking spot on a weekend is also exacerbating the issue.

It all comes down to overuse and how that is addressed and managed. Unfortunately the only good answer I can come up with is to regulate the number of new hikers allowed each year. Restrict it to a number half that of the number of hikers dying and retiring from the activity. People who have a history of hiking would be allowed to continue, but a lottery would have to be created to determine who start to hike for the first time. Perhaps a "minor league" or "hiking trial phase" could be set up, where new hikers have to are allowed at higher numbers in local and state parks and have to complete a certain number of walks or hikes before they enter the full-hiker-status lottery. Maybe the COVID vaccine microchips can be put to a good use after all.

Yea right. Like that is going to happen. Kind of like when you're out there and you say you can hear the cry of The Long Lost Fagawee Tribe. "Where the Fagawee...where the Fagawee"? In other words, the Forest Service has lost its way. The money and the personal just are not there to make any sort of regulatory process happen.

 

[TEO]

Yea right. Like that is going to happen. [snip] The money and the personal just are not there to make any sort of regulatory process happen.

That and the tracking capabilities of the vaccine microchips has been largely a failure, as their range is limited, so they don't work well outside of urban areas. The technology has gottena big boost this past year, and the range of the chips should be significantly greater by the time Pfizer and Moderna deploy their "Omicron Update," but they are still working out some kinks with the updated chip, which is why haven't seen an updated Omicron vaccine "booster" yet. Of course, the other big problem is that not enough people will get the Omicron "booster," especially in rural populations where the limited tracking has been more of an issue.

 

[Rhody Seth]

I'd be more likely to start my drive at 7 AM, arrive at the trailhead before noon, do my hike and drive to the campground after dark.

Well, good on ya I guess.

 

[skiguy]

That and the tracking capabilities of the vaccine microchips has been largely a failure, as their range is limited, so they don't work well outside of urban areas. The technology has gottena big boost this past year, and the range of the chips should be significantly greater by the time Pfizer and Moderna deploy their "Omicron Update," but they are still working out some kinks with the updated chip, which is why haven't seen an updated Omicron vaccine "booster" yet. Of course, the other big problem is that not enough people will get the Omicron "booster," especially in rural populations where the limited tracking has been more of an issue.

No doubt. Big Brother is watching. My generation that started hiking in the 60’s were quite anti-establishment thence my persistent thrashing of The AMC. To focus somewhat on the OP rather than drift into some hypothetical Orwellian thesis I’ll propose some of that rebellious nature still exists. Thence the camping at trailheads issue. My guess is that these folks would more than likely fit the profile of also being anti microchip. Let alone being tracked when actually trying to unplug. Ironically though the high use of cell phones in the backcountry by that same crowd certainly may be a conduit.

 

[sierra]

Appalachia was looking like a Dead Festival today.

I drove by Appalachia on my way to climb Rogers Ledge. I could not believe the amount of cars lining the highway, just madness. That is not what I'm looking for when I go hiking. The hike I went on, One car on arrival, total of 8 people met on hike, summit to myself and my dog, that's hiking.

 

[skiguy]

I drove by Appalachia on my way to climb Rogers Ledge. I could not believe the amount of cars lining the highway, just madness. That is not what I'm looking for when I go hiking. The hike I went on, One car on arrival, total of 8 people met on hike, summit to myself and my dog, that's hiking.

The Roadside Parking on Rt. 2 really ought to be shut down much like Franconia Notch. It is not only dangerous but the impact to the trails is prolific. Hopefully someone does not get seriously injured before that happens. Something tells me that all of those cars were not empty the night before either. The AMC really ought to man up and shuttle their guests over from Pinkham and or The Highland Center. As should be the case also at Lonesome and The Bridal Path.