Snow Shelters

[DayTrip]

With all the nasty weather I haven't been able to get up to NH for about 6 weeks now. Been watching quite a few documentaries on various snow survival shelters and it seems like in a lot of places outdoor travelers actually rely on these versus lugging tents along, etc. So I was curious if anyone actually does this when snow depths are adequate versus carrying a tent and all the related gear. Seems like simply carrying a shovel and a few other light items would be all you need to make a decent shelter. Was actually considering a short hike to try this out one night as a comparison. Many of these videos indicate temps inside the shelters pretty close to freezing, which would be at least as good or better than the temps I have recorded inside my 4 season tent in my "trial overnights" in my backyard last year

Couple of questions I had:
1) Many of these videos show a burning candle inside. No one has specifically said why so I was wondering what th purpose of the candle is? Does a flame that small in some way create heat inside the shelter? Is it to gauge carbon monoxide levels, i.e. if the flame goes out you might be suffocating? I watched about a dozen or so of these videos and while no one specifically mentioned the candle it was in most shelters. One guy did mention having a breathing port in the roof so carbon monoxide wouldn't build up because the shelters can get surprisingly air tight.
2) It would seem carrying a small tarp would add a lot of versatility to many of these shleter designs versus messing around with making snow blocks and other stuff. Is it because the tarp doesn't provide enough insulation versus packed snow? My thought was that you could make a pretty quick A-Frame type shelter by stretching and burying a tarp over the top versus making interlocking blocks.

Was just curious if any ultra-light types or traditionalists have given this a try and what their thoughts were on it versus packing all of the modern gear we have now. I l already carry a Gore Tex bivy sack in Winter and was thinking that carrying a tarp and shovel might be an easy way to substantially expand my emergency options on Winter hikes without adding a whole lot of weight.

 

[expat]

I haven't slept in an igloo, but did sleep a couple of nights in a quinzhee that had been made by two hikers who were coming out of the Pemi while we were going in. They told us where we could find it. It was comfortable and fit three of us. The one thing I didn't really like was the crawl to get in and out. Since I didn't make it, I'm not sure how long it took, but overall, it was a reasonable alternative to tenting. It seemed like it would have been a lot of work to build, and I would think that in digging it out, it would have been easy to get overheated.

There's a good description of building one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinzhee.

There are also a bunch of youtube videos showing how to build one. This one seemed to match the method that I was taught: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaDJpnrApyA.

 

[Nessmuk]

I have built and slept very comfortably in many quinzee snow mounds. The biggest problem is the time it takes to build them, and that you will get completely soaked from both sweating and from crawling around in the snow as you build and hollow them out. I wear minimal layers while wearing a rain suit to build mine. You have to start early, well before dark to pile up a big enough mound of snow. Then it has to settle for an hour or so to "sinter" before you take an hour or more to hollow it out.

Yes you need to make a ventilation hole, usually the size of a ski pole basket being enough. During one Boy Scout training weekend in the Adirondacks it got down to -30F that night. I had 2 candles in my quinzee and the inside temperature was +20 or more. The candles provide plenty of light and some heat. Another one would have made enough heat to start melting my ceiling. Scouts who had built a quinzee did as well as I did. Other styles of makeshift shelters with tarps and such not so much, luckily a warm cabin was nearby. A lot of vehicles needed help starting the next morning.

 

[DayTrip]

Yes the quinzee definitely looks very labor intensive and I don't know that I would go that route. I was particularly interested in an a-frame style shelter in one video. It is essentially a snow trench (which looked very warm but quite claustrophobic) but with blocks making an a-frame roof instead of a flat roof made with sticks and an emergency blanket (and then covered with some snow to seal). It seems like it could easily be modified to just stack the walls high with a taper and use a tarp for the actual roof, which would allow for many options. On a steep slope it could easily be modified to be a snow hole type shelter so it would be pretty versatile. Wish I had snow around my house to experiment. Looks like I will have to take a ride North to try out. The simplicity of these shelters and not having to really bring anything to spend a night out is very appealing.

 

[Nessmuk]

Want snow? Come to the Tug Hill lake effect country east of Lake Ontario.

 

[dug]

True story. Many years ago we were camping near the split for the two Hancocks. We had two tents setup and were hanging out, cooking, etc. I was wandering about and noticed mound. I investigated and found an entrance. Crawled inside and found a good quinzee with enough room for three to sleep comfortably. It was a little under 6' high and easily 8' around. Candles were still setup. The breathing/exhaust holes had been covered, so we poked new ones. Brought our bottles and snacks and cards and hung out there for the a while. We were down to a shirt and pants as we guessed it was 40-degrees in there vs. 0 out.

I've built them a few other times around the house, but not when camping. Too much work. If you can live off the hard work of others...well. that's the way to go.

One more true story: Don't make a massive 10' high, 20' around one on a pond.........

 

[DayTrip]

Want snow? Come to the Tug Hill lake effect country east of Lake Ontario.

Wow. That would be an awesome spot to build some prototypes. I have about 1 inch in my yard.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Someone, Hikerbrian ?, had a post detailing the digging out of a planned snow cave during a winter Presi traverse. If I recall correctly, even with the advantage of the snow already consolidated, it was sweaty work & the other partners did the rest of the camp chores while the digger changed into dry clothes and warmed up in his bag.

I imagine that a snow trench lined and covered with spruce branches, along with a bivy and dry insulating layers, would be the emergency snow shelter that has the most protection for the least effort.

I have often thought about asking Santa for this tool (https://grandshelters.com/) but I don't get out on enough winter trips and we don't get enough snow in Central MA to justify spending the money.

As an aside, I used to spend a good part of my winter backpacking trips stopping to practice making and sustaining a fire. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that, while it would be a vital skill if you fell into a stream or pond during a winter trip, it is not as good a plan for an unplanned overnight as a bivy, SVEA, and extra insulating layers.

 

[Brambor]

10 or 15 years ago I did buy the icebox tool. Well, let's just say it isn't as easy as in the video and the same applies as with a quinzee - lot of work, soaking your clothing with sweat and exposure to snow

Someone, Hikerbrian ?, had a post detailing the digging out of a planned snow cave during a winter Presi traverse. If I recall correctly, even with the advantage of the snow already consolidated, it was sweaty work & the other partners did the rest of the camp chores while the digger changed into dry clothes and warmed up in his bag.

I imagine that a snow trench lined and covered with spruce branches, along with a bivy and dry insulating layers, would be the emergency snow shelter that has the most protection for the least effort.

I have often thought about asking Santa for this tool (https://grandshelters.com/) but I don't get out on enough winter trips and we don't get enough snow in Central MA to justify spending the money.

As an aside, I used to spend a good part of my winter backpacking trips stopping to practice making and sustaining a fire. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that, while it would be a vital skill if you fell into a stream or pond during a winter trip, it is not as good a plan for an unplanned overnight as a bivy, SVEA, and extra insulating layers.

 

[hikerbrian]

Someone, Hikerbrian ?, had a post detailing the digging out of a planned snow cave during a winter Presi traverse.

Not me, but I'm definitely interested in this thread. I used an IceBox 3 or 4 years ago that a friend had brought on a trip into the Pemi. It was just for fun - we all had tents and the IceBox was just to fiddle around with and try out. In the powdery, light snow, it took us 2 hours or so to get the first two courses of blocks set. We actually gave up at that point, mostly because we knew we were heading out that day and we just couldn't find the motivation to continue the effort. It's a cool contraption, and it was working... but yeah, lots of time and effort required for that one. And we'd depleted the nice powder snow nearby with the first 2 courses, and the granular stuff underneath took MUCH longer to consolidate/sinter into stable blocks.

Building and sleeping in a snow shelter of some kind is on my bucket list.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I've done it in the backyard to test but never on trail. It took me 3+ hours to build a quinzee and I was soaked to the bone from sweat and crawling around in the snow. An hour to pile the snow, an hour to sinter, and hour to dig it out. It doesn't seem practical for simple overnights and certainly isn't getting you out of the elements in an emergency situation with any expediency.

 

[sierra]

Once, I spent 3 days at Barnes Field. While we were hanging out drinking we made one. It took along time but it came out really well. I would never do it on a real climb, I would consider one for an emergency, IE. just enough to bivi in.

 

[nartreb]

The IceBox is not worthwhile unless you're planning to spend several days in one spot. It's less overall work than a quinzee - less sweat, less getting wet crawling into a mound of snow - and it's probably a bit faster too, but it's still going to take an hour or two, depending on snow conditions and how much practice you've had. Needs a fair amount of practice to work at all - get the curve of the walls wrong and they will collapse. (You need to adjust the length of a guide pole as you build up courses). It's also nearly impossible to finish the roof solo.

In an emergency, trench plus spruce roof (plus tarp and/or extra snow) is quick and effective, assuming you've got materials available.

 

[DayTrip]

Someone, Hikerbrian ?, had a post detailing the digging out of a planned snow cave during a winter Presi traverse. If I recall correctly, even with the advantage of the snow already consolidated, it was sweaty work & the other partners did the rest of the camp chores while the digger changed into dry clothes and warmed up in his bag.

I imagine that a snow trench lined and covered with spruce branches, along with a bivy and dry insulating layers, would be the emergency snow shelter that has the most protection for the least effort.

I have often thought about asking Santa for this tool (https://grandshelters.com/) but I don't get out on enough winter trips and we don't get enough snow in Central MA to justify spending the money.

As an aside, I used to spend a good part of my winter backpacking trips stopping to practice making and sustaining a fire. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that, while it would be a vital skill if you fell into a stream or pond during a winter trip, it is not as good a plan for an unplanned overnight as a bivy, SVEA, and extra insulating layers.

In many of the videos I watched people used avalanche saws to cut blocks and then pull them out (obviously when snow conditions are right). Apparently this substantially reduces the effort versus digging and you can then reuse the blocks as needed to wall in the top, entrance, etc. In one video a guy had a huge saw that was basically a flexible version of what you'd see a lumberjack sawing the end of a huge log with but it flexed. He looped it, sawed horizontally to depth he wanted and then just altered angle and cut to the ground. He was ripping out huge blocks of snow in no time (fairly steep slope). He had a full blown snow pit with bench and walled in entrance in under 20 minutes. Was pretty impressive.

 

[DayTrip]

Based on everything I watched I would only consider the trench style shelter or the A-frame (which is essentially just a fancy trench shelter) for our area/my purposes. The Quinzee is cool and may work best but as others have mentioned it is not practical for a single night or in a survival situation. Definitely going to give this a try one weekend and see how it goes, time the build, take some temperature readings, etc. Thanks for all the feedback on this.

 

[ChrisB]

Based on everything I watched I would only consider the trench style shelter or the A-frame (which is essentially just a fancy trench shelter) for our area/my purposes. The Quinzee is cool and may work best but as others have mentioned it is not practical for a single night or in a survival situation. Definitely going to give this a try one weekend and see how it goes, time the build, take some temperature readings, etc. Thanks for all the feedback on this.

Back in the day, I took a winter shelter building course offered by the AMC (in March each spring). It was led by an expert shelter builder who knew his stuff and held in the Gulf of Slides. We built a variety of shelters over a weekend and actually slept in them for two nights.

Here's what I remember:

Igloo -- Very labor intensive, requires skill to lay ascending curve of blocks correctly, requires firm snow condx for blocks cut with saw, not really worth effort for single night.

Trench -- Easy to carve out with shovel, cold, coffin-like, and hard to cover. Requires bivy sack and/or tarp to be comfortable and effective. Practical in a dire emergency.

Snow Mound -- Hard to build, lots of shoveling, waiting, more shoveling, etc. Hard to dig out. Not really practical for one night.

During the class I spent two nights in the igloo we built and was amazed at how comfortable it was. Once fully chinked up it was warm (25-30 degs) absolutely windproof, and quiet. But... it took several of us 5 hours to build working under the guidance of an expert. Not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately, I don't think that course is offered an longer.

cb

 

[Mike P.]

The Pine Tree Council in ME of the BSA does winter high adventure trips where scouts stay in Quinzee's One of the troops in down here built them several years ago also.

Snow is a very good insulator and is 32 degrees. (back when we went to VT for drinking, we tested this) This is why you can place beer completely buried in snow and it will not freeze even when it gets down to zero. (It melting in the day and becoming ice is different)

Question is what are you looking to do and where are you going. If it's getting late, your in the white with plenty of energy and a light and a couple miles from your car, walk to your car. If you are spent or injured, you may not have the ability to build anything more than a gulley big enough for you and then cover it. You'll need a fair amount of energy to build a quinzee.

Seems the best use of Quinzee's would be if you are several / many miles in or planning a multi day trip in a fairly remote area. Think the Santanoni's, Allen or Seward's in the ADK's or if you wanted to get into Panther Gorge and then spend a couple of days doing Grey, Marcy, Skylight and Haystack. If you were going to spend a few days in the pemi, maybe.

At one point, a couple of old time VFTT'er s did an igloo video and quinzee (they were just called snow caves) back in the day. As other's mentioned, hard to do in powder, not impossible but building it is an art form. For some reason I want to say it may have been Jon Burroughs and the BMT crew or someone who knew Mr.Loomis.

 

[SherpaWill]

This was from January '95 between Adams and Jefferson. We came across these caves and used them. Best night sleep I've ever had Winter camping. We assumed they were made on a guided Presidential Traverse judging by how well they were made. The living area was about 4 feet above the entrance. They each had two raised platforms for sleeping and a lower level in between for cooking.

 

[peakbagger]

One year the shelters at Hermit lake were completely covered with snow all the way over the roof. Enterprising folks dug tunnels down to them and slept cozy.

I have seen some years where snow would blow over a high spot and create a cornice quite close to the ground downwind of the obstruction. With care, a shelter could be dug into it. Unfortunately I think snow conditions are far better out west than out east for this as we tend to get a lot more freeze thaw conditions that consolidate the snow.

 

[DayTrip]

This was from January '95 between Adams and Jefferson. We came across these caves and used them. Best night sleep I've ever had Winter camping. We assumed they were made on a guided Presidential Traverse judging by how well they were made. The living area was about 4 feet above the entrance. They each had two raised platforms for sleeping and a lower level in between for cooking.


View attachment 5945

Cool. That does look like some serious work was done.