Snowshoes for skiing :)

[MikeK]

Hi,

I'm new here and I realize the season is ending but I've been tossing up an idea in my head... lookin' for some feedback.

Anyone have any experience with Northern Lite SS's? I'm thinking getting a pair to carry whilst skiing for the times when I get into trouble and have to remove my skis, or want to to climb something steep or treacherous. Crampons are much more compact but I was specifically thinking of times where if the skis came off I'd sink to my hip in snow!

I have a couple different pairs of Tubbs shoes I use now but they are both rather unwieldy to carry on a pack (length and weight).

Any comments or experience with these? I know they are pricey but if they'd fit the bill I think they'd be worth it i.e. do they have enough grip to actually climb a snowy peak? Are they durable?

Or is best just to drink the MSR kool-aid?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[cushetunk]

What types of skis and skiing are you considering the snowshoes for? Could you put skins on your skis?

 

[dave.m]

I'd be interested in hearing the responses.

There is a trip in NH to Nancy Ponds where this makes a lot of sense. The trail goes up along a brook and into a sharp bowl that drops away from the high land where the ponds are. The first part of the trip can be done on wax/no-wax. The next bit can be done on skins. But when the trail climbs up the "headwall" of the bowl, it's too steep and tight for skins. If it's solid, it's a straightforward crampon. In spring mush, I got defeated there by the post holing. Not entirely sure that snowshoes would have worked due to the steepness but it's not unreasonable.

Hoping to hear good feedback on this one.

 

[Jay H]

I've had an old pair of Northern Lite Elite 25s... they must be about 7-8 years old now and I beat the snot out of them all over the northeast. I have gone through 1 pair of front crampons after I broke one and replaced all those rivets in them with bolts and nylok nuts. A few of my fasteners on the decking is starting to pull out but we're talking a lot of use. The rear strap will loosen up over time, but it pretty much has similar bindings to the three strap MSRs though I notice NLs has a new type of binding out now (no experience on them).

My Elite 25s" are yellow, some of the newer ones are rescue orange....

As far as the snowshoe, they don't have super traction (as they are meant to be a racing snowshoe) but I do fine. They are very good at skiing down hills because of it so you just need to expect it... No televators but I am in the pool of folks that don't really use them....

I bought new crampons from NL when I broke one (while in the Santanonis in the ADKs), they are easy to deal with and friendly enough...

i would buy them again if given the opportunity...

Jay

 

[MikeK]

Yeah I got into a situation last week that made me wish I had SS with me.

I was breaking trail through some real deep, mushy, wet snow. I got to a section where the trail was re-routed through some craggy ups and downs (not long, just short and steep)... I couldn't turn in the heavy wet snow with my setup and depending on where I put my weight my tips would sink and I'd face plant or my skis would shoot out from under me like two greased hogs. If it were lighter powder the trail would have been easily skiable for me... the wet snow was the killer - a better skier with better gear might have been OK, but for me it was tough!

Anyway it made me think of carrying SS with me, but I hate the weight and bulk. I don't think skins would have helped me because it was mostly the downs that were putting me down.

 

[David Metsky]

You can wear skins on tricky downhills, I do it all the time. I'm sure there are places where carrying snowshoes would be helpful, but I probably wouldn't choose to go there on skis if I had my druthers.

 

[DougPaul]

There is a trip in NH to Nancy Ponds where this makes a lot of sense. The trail goes up along a brook and into a sharp bowl that drops away from the high land where the ponds are. The first part of the trip can be done on wax/no-wax. The next bit can be done on skins. But when the trail climbs up the "headwall" of the bowl, it's too steep and tight for skins. If it's solid, it's a straightforward crampon. In spring mush, I got defeated there by the post holing. Not entirely sure that snowshoes would have worked due to the steepness but it's not unreasonable.

The other alternative is to wait for better snow conditions...

When I skied Nancy Ponds I used a combination of side-stepping and bare-booting to get up and down those steeps. I had skins, but no crampons or snowshoes. I met some snowshoers up at the ponds, but I don't know if they used their snowshoes on the steep section. (I don't think they had crampons.)


MikeK:
Since your skis (with skins) can handle moderate slopes, I'd consider a light-weight snowshoe with good traction (eg MRS Evo Ascents), but as dave.m notes, crampons may be more appropriate in some spots and snow conditions.

In general, I don't think many BC skiers carry snowshoes here in the NE. (Couloir skiers often carry crampons. eg in Tuckermans Ravine or the Great Gulf.)

There used to be some tiny snowshoes intended for (pre-splitboard) snow boarders. Perhaps they are still available.

Doug

 

[MikeK]

Hmmm... sounds like I need to carry skins with me. I had thought they were only good for climbing but it makes sense they would slow you down in the forward direction as well.

In that case yeah, MSR's make more sense due to their aggressive crampons and small size. I had been avoiding them due to durability issues with the crampons themselves, and the comparable Tubbs are longer and heavier.

The thing that worried me about the NL's was the Aluminum crampon. I was worried that wouldn't hold up well or bite in like steel.

 

[Becca M]

Basically, it's skins *or* snowshoes - want to keep the weight down, so, use the skins if you can. I avoid places where I would need both. Skins can get you up/down and if they can't, you need more traction/spikes/crampons... Just my opinion.

 

[Jay H]

well, for what it sounds like you're using, the AL crampons isn't that much an issue. I use my NLs as my primary snow shoe they've done the 46W, the 3500W, all the peaks in Baxter in winter and I've only broken one of them once. It sounds like if you need the occasionaly snowshoe, the AL crampon isn't that big a deal, IMO.

I think the problem MSRs are the lightning ascents which aren't that light to begin with the Evos are a lot more reliable according to the threads I've read...

Jay

 

[sardog1]

Hmmm... sounds like I need to carry skins with me. I had thought they were only good for climbing but it makes sense they would slow you down in the forward direction as well.

In that case yeah, MSR's make more sense due to their aggressive crampons and small size. I had been avoiding them due to durability issues with the crampons themselves, and the comparable Tubbs are longer and heavier.

The thing that worried me about the NL's was the Aluminum crampon. I was worried that wouldn't hold up well or bite in like steel.

The old timers in the Sierras and such used to wrap cordage around their skis to climb with and to slow them down.

I have no idea why you'd avoid the MSR Evos and Denalis "due to durability issues" with their crampons. The crampons are stainless steel. I've used a pair of the latter for more than ten years. Only an eighty-pound gear bag at fifty miles an hour has caused them any damage. (If it's the Lightnings you're talking about, then I understand completely: MSR Lightning Ascents, R.I.P. and similar threads here.

 

[MikeK]

It's a tough call. If I bought MSRs they would def be the Evo Ascents. They aren't light, but they are small... probably too small to support me and my pack on unbroken trail. At least the small NLs have more area and are lighter. I almost always carry some other traction for ice.

I suppose the AL wouldn't be much of an issue as long as I didn't wear them on rocks and stuff... I have some beater SS for that... and I surely wouldn't be skiing in those conditions

I just got into BC skiing this year from an XC and Alpine background so I'm trying to figure stuff out. I only have one pair of skis now, might be two next year... I've never tried skins, never needed them for what I've done before... in fact this part of the trail I was on last week would have be a blast if the snow was different. I'm finding that the conditions can more challenging than the terrain... at least for me so far!

Thanks for all the feedback!

PS Any advice on skins for an old school tele ski? Mine are waxless and 200cm.

 

[DougPaul]

Any advice on skins for an old school tele ski? Mine are waxless and 200cm.

Skins can be used on any ski--waxable or waxless.

Some past threads (Just use the advanced search to search for titles containing the word "skins"):
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?8610-Climbing-skins
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?16556-Skins-with-Nordic-BC
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?28446-BC-Skins
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?34399-climbing-skins

Kicker skins can also be useful for when you don't need a full skin.

Doug

 

[MikeK]

Ooo... well I don't know? Looks as though skins can be a bit tricky.

I recall one comment I just read... that skins allow you to climb up stuff you can't ski down Haha! Yeah, I could see that! Right now I'm pretty good at skiing down anything I can climb up with a waxless pattern, relatively skinny ski (Glittertinds) and soft boots (Alpina Alaska 75mm).

I don't think skins would have helped me:

a) I couldn't turn as it was... sinking to my ankles in mashed potatoes with 200cm skis... my only option was to step turn... and that make my skis sink and stick or speed up.

b) I could climb no problem, as long as I didn't linger - the snow was sticky... until it compressed, then it was like ice!

c) I was having the stick/slip problem without the skins

Maybe skins should be reserved for my next skis and boots, which should be more downhill orientated.

For now SS would have helped... or taking a different route!

I don't plan on carrying SS all the time - just when I think I might need a confidence booster or a plan B

I had another falling problem this year... that was with a rock hard ice base covered with ultra fluffy powder...

 

[dave.m]

PS Any advice on skins for an old school tele ski? Mine are waxless and 200cm.

1) Find glue on skins a few mm's narrower than the waist of your skinniest backcountry skis. I have a 50mm and a 65mm pair that cover the range from skinny to mid width.

2) Cut the skins to be a few cm shorter than the shortest skis you're going to use them on. Typically wider skis are shorter. My skinny skins are long for skis in the 200-215 cm range. The fat ones fit 180-190cm skis.

3) Get a heavy needle and thread and put on a "rat tail" attachment on the tail of the skins. This requires putting a binding screw on the top deck. If you add a nylon strap with a ladder lock, you can make them more adjustable in length.

I've found this attachment method to be ultra secure since it doesn't rely on glue strength to keep the tails on and very versatile, allowing one pair of skins to be used on multiple skis.

 

[MikeK]

Excellent. Thanks again.

I'm still debating (with myself) the necessity of skins for skinny skis and I see that debate/discussion has gone on before... I guess either way I won't learn what is right or wrong on the computer, probably the best place to decide would be in the woods with skis on my feet.

Without going into much detail I suppose there are many different types of skiers... some choose to avoid difficult terrain and conditions (not always possible), some chose to take the skis off if they get into trouble, and some seem to prefer to try to ski anything, no matter what! I'm trying not to let my ambitions overcome my skill or the skill of those I ski with, but I also do like to be prepared...

At least I have some idea what to do if I decide to give them a try. Also it seems the NL Elite would be a good snowshoe to carry on your pack, or heck, even wear just for fun!

 

[DougPaul]

2) Cut the skins to be a few cm shorter than the shortest skis you're going to use them on. Typically wider skis are shorter. My skinny skins are long for skis in the 200-215 cm range. The fat ones fit 180-190cm skis.

3) Get a heavy needle and thread and put on a "rat tail" attachment on the tail of the skins. This requires putting a binding screw on the top deck. If you add a nylon strap with a ladder lock, you can make them more adjustable in length.

I've found this attachment method to be ultra secure since it doesn't rely on glue strength to keep the tails on and very versatile, allowing one pair of skins to be used on multiple skis.

I use a different technique of making skins fit a number of pairs of skis. (Take your choice...)
* I leave the skins full length and wrap the end of the skin around the tail of the ski.
* I then use a Voile strap (http://www.backcountry.com/voile-ski-straps-9-through-24-inches-vol0083) to secure the end of the skin to the ski. (I wrap the strap between the bottom of the ski and the skin on the bottom and over the skin on the top of the ski.)

 

[DougPaul]

I'm still debating (with myself) the necessity of skins for skinny skis and I see that debate/discussion has gone on before... I guess either way I won't learn what is right or wrong on the computer, probably the best place to decide would be in the woods with skis on my feet.

Without going into much detail I suppose there are many different types of skiers... some choose to avoid difficult terrain and conditions (not always possible), some chose to take the skis off if they get into trouble, and some seem to prefer to try to ski anything, no matter what! I'm trying not to let my ambitions overcome my skill or the skill of those I ski with, but I also do like to be prepared...

It's up to you--like most other pieces of equipment they do not solve all problems. They simply expand your envelope (range of conditions)--there will still be conditions that you cannot or are unwilling to ski. This applies to any width ski.

I too am perfectly willing to walk if need be.

Take, for instance, Mt. Garfield. (For those who may not know, the Mt Garfield trail is skiable up to the last ~.2mi.)
* The first time I ascended (most of the way up), we climbed on waxes and came screaming down with intentional and unintentional crashes to control our speed. We had waxable wood skis without metal edges. (We had to wax some party members' waxless skis to help get them up...)
* More recently (using modern metal-edged plastic waxable skis), I have climbed all the way on waxes alone with very good snow conditions as well as climbed all the way on skins when the snow conditions weren't quite as good. While it may have been possible to climb without skins under the poorer conditions, the use of skins saved time and energy.
* I'm not a great BC downhill skier (and there is often a snowshoe trench to complicate speed control) so I usually use skins to help control speed on the way down for the steeper (upper) part.

Doug

 

[Stan]

I have a pair of Northern Lights and they are light and I like the binding so I can attest to the snow shoe. They've served me well though I'll sometimes use my Tubbs for steeper or more remote terrain. Other than weight, I'm not sure of an advantage in carrying them over your Tubbs ... you'll need the same size. As a backup, I'd take them over the Tubbs for the weight and convenience of the binding. Sounds like a good idea to me though others have different approaches to dealing with the situation you describe.

And this isn't a bad time to bring up the topic as there may great buys in end of season sales or even sales of rentals ... though inventory may be a bit slim this year due to all the snow we've had.

 

[dave.m]

Another trip where skinny skis + skins is a winning combination is the Hitchcock loop, which starts on the Hancock trail, then heads up and over the height of land on the Cedar Brook trail before dropping down into the East Branch drainage on an old logging rail bed. It's definitely a skinny ski tour but skins are real helpful climbing up the steep bits of Cedar Brook.

Come to think of it (sorry to mention the loop that bit Doug) the Flume/Livermore Rd loop is a trip I carry skins for my skinny skis. The climb up the head wall section of the Flume trail may or may not be climbable on wax alone, depending.

I'll do anything to stay on wax on climbs and like Doug, will use skins for speed control on down mountain legs of up and down tours like coming off of Nancy Ponds, Champney Falls and such like that.