Snowtires For Car

[Zimmer]

I live in the Whites and notice a HUGE difference between driving with snows and without them (fwiw I drive an AWD vehicle). I wouldn't go without snows even if I lived down in the rat race. If I found a cheap set of extra rims, I'd buy them, but I don't have an extra set at the moment. I had Hakka's ten or fifteen years ago, but have been using cheaper tires in recent years; I (um, okay, actually my DH) just look for something with a substantial tread that resembles the Hakka tread. I haven't noticed much difference.

Can't help you out with studs/no studs, as I have studded this year for the first time ever (we requested no studs; we weren't charged for studs; but we wound up with them anyway), and we haven't had any snow yet. Ask me in a few days, hopefully. They are LOUD, though. Really loud. Either that or my lug nuts are coming loose or something. I really, really notice the noise with them, much more than with regular snows.

 

[Waumbek]

Second, a quick question: studs or no studs?

-Dr. Wu

Consumer Reports says they aren't worth the trouble, and I agree. I have not found them very effective on ice, and they can skid when making contact with smooth cement garage floors and other hard, smooth surfaces they can't bite into.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I've found studded tires makes a huge difference. The noise decreases after a bit as the studs wear down. There were dozens of times I'd never have gotten the car up our steep driveway (gravel) in VT without them. Under certain conditions, they will literally cut down through ice.

OTH - if you're not a reasonably good winter driver before, don't expect miracles. All bets are off on glare ice (and apparently smooth concrete floors). Even chains may not work in certain conditions. If you don't know how to steer out of a skid, know that under certain conditions locking the brakes on non-ABS vehicles will cause the vehicle to accelerate, and a few other fundamentals of winter driving, then studs may be a waste of money.

Another way to look at it - you're hiking the Lion's Head Winter trail, and it's mid-February. Would you not take your crampons (studs)?

With all due to respect to Waumbeck and Consumer Reports - when I read that the Swedes, Finns, Norwegians and Danes has stopped research on winter tire compounds, tread designs, and the use of crampons ... then I'll pay attention.

 

[dr_wu002]

I've found studded tires makes a huge difference. The noise decreases after a bit as the studs wear down. There were dozens of times I'd never have gotten the car up our steep driveway (gravel) in VT without them. Under certain conditions, they will literally cut down through ice.

OTH - if you're not a reasonably good winter driver before, don't expect miracles. All bets are off on glare ice (and apparently smooth concrete floors). Even chains may not work in certain conditions.

I'm a good (and safe) winter driver. I lived in Maine for a while and got away without snowtires. I'm more concerned though with the steepish, winding roads in the Whites and when they get icy. I'm not looking for something that will enable me to drive up the side of the Cannon Cliffs in an ice storm though -- I know my limits both with and without snowtires; I'm just looking for added safety. Perhaps they will help prevent my car's blossoming love affair with ditches from going any further than it has.

Studs sound ok, except will I destroy them driving 70 miles/day too and from work? I'd hate to get studs and then they become bald-ass things after a few weeks because I'm abusing them commuting too and from work.

Consumer Reports says they aren't worth the trouble, and I agree.

Thanks for the link and the advice. I'll have to take this all into consideration.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Studs sound ok, except will I destroy them driving 70 miles/day too and from work? I'd hate to get studs and then they become bald-ass things after a few weeks because I'm abusing them commuting too and from work.

-Dr. Wu

I used to commute about the same distance, and this is what I've found: Whether a tire was studded or not didn't impact on its longevity. The softer the thread compound, the better the traction, but the shorter the useful life. Hakkapalitas have a soft compound, but they don't wear quite as long. At the end of the first season, about 10-20% of the studs may be missing; but the end of the second maybe 50%. Snow tires typically lasted me 3 seasons, and about 1/2 way thru the 2nd year I'd move them to the rear and put new ones of the front (the cars are always front wheel drive).

As someone else mentioned, the ideal method is to have extra rims, so you can put them on just before the first big storm, and take them off as soon as possible. Not only is it more convenient, but a tire can be trashed putting it on/taking it off a rim.

I wouldn't run studded tires on AWD or 4WD vehicles - I think that's overkill. If you have to be out in conditions that require THAT kind of traction, get some chains.

 

[dr_wu002]

As someone else mentioned, the ideal method is to have extra rims, so you can put them on just before the first big storm, and take them off as soon as possible. Not only is it more convenient, but a tire can be trashed putting it on/taking it off a rim.

I wouldn't run studded tires on AWD or 4WD vehicles - I think that's overkill. If you have to be out in conditions that require THAT kind of traction, get some chains.

I think if I'm going to be out in conditions that require serious traction I'll get a friend that has the right type of car.

Getting an extra set of rims is an interesting idea that I will have to consider. Although, I wonder how motivated I would be to constantly swap them back and forth.

Thanks for the advice.

-Dr. Wu

 

[DougPaul]

Getting an extra set of rims is an interesting idea that I will have to consider. Although, I wonder how motivated I would be to constantly swap them back and forth.

I had a set of 2 rims with permanently mounted studded snow tires for a previous (RWD) car. It meant that I could change between summer and winter tires myself. (I only made 2 changes/year--one in the late fall and one in the early spring.)

I had no problems with stud wear. As others have noted, they are a bit noisy.

I believe the studs helped. FWIW, I drove up-and-over the height of land on 118 in 4-6 inches of unplowed snow with them (rear wheel drive car). (The studs probably made no difference here.)

I also had chains and needed them occasionally. (Mostly to access my parking lot--it had steep access road.)

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Re: changing tires - sorry if that wasn't clear. Just fall and spring, as Doug points out.

The point I was trying to make is that if the snows are premounted, then you can put them on and take them off based on the particular winter, not some arbitrary date on the calendar.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Getting an extra set of rims is an interesting idea that I will have to consider. Although, I wonder how motivated I would be to constantly swap them back and forth.
-Dr. Wu

I would never consider winter driving in northern New England without snows on my two Saabs (one deceased), and found that the cost of the extra four rims for the permanently mounted snows (I like Michelin Artic Alpin; yes, that is the correct spelling) paid for themselves in probably less than three years, as I can change the rims w/tires twice each year myself (compare to changing tires on one set of rims at $15/rim each time at the shop).

 

[TEO]

I've only quickly skimmed this thread, but, having done so, it would appear Kevin Rooney is right on the money in all aspects. Just in case he missed something, here's a recap:

There are two keystones to winter driving:

1) Speed. If you go off the road, you were driving too fast. Period. (Unless you slid off backwards, while trying to go uphill.)

2) Decent snowtires. Four.


Some ancillary points:

a) Maintain a safe and appropriate distance behind the vehicle in front of you. Adjust distance to speed and conditions. In perfect conditions there should be a 2-3 second gap at the very minimum. In adverse conditions, the gap should be much greater.

b) Stay relaxed, but focused when driving in adverse conditions. Tension inhibits proper reactions, as do distractions such as the radio.

c) Regardless of whether or not your vehicle is FWD, AWD, or 4WD, snow tires help immeasurably when compared to all-season tires if you drive in snowy/icy conditions. If you're driving to the mountains of the NE in the winter, then they're essential for your safety and the safety of other vehicles around you.

d) AWD and 4WD is way, way over-rated. Probably 99% of the population has no need for such technology. A FWD car with good snowtires is far more safe and useful than an AWD vehicle with non-snowtires.

e) Studs make a huge difference, but are only worthwhile if you live in very snowy and icy areas, preferably with hills. If you're driving long distances to get to the mountains, then forgo the studs.

f) Hakkapeliittas are the best snowtire on the face of the earth. Green Diamond are good. There are also many other suitable snowtires out there. A new generic snowtire is orders of magnitude superior to all-season tires.

g) Junkyards, at least in Vermont, are an excellent source for good snowtires. Last year: 1 pair almost-new Hakkas, with rims, and matching hubcaps: $30.


(Qualifications: with the exceptions of Alain Prost and Finnish rally drivers, no one is a better winter driver than me.)

 

[Zimmer]

I think if I'm going to be out in conditions that require serious traction I'll get a friend that has the right type of car.

Yeah, but as you know, the weather is pretty unpredictable and variable up here, so you really never have any clue what you're going to wind up driving in, and it can change drastically from one side of the Notch to another. Sucks not to be prepared.

Getting an extra set of rims is an interesting idea that I will have to consider. Although, I wonder how motivated I would be to constantly swap them back and forth.

I found the opposite to be true: when I had an extra set of rims all ready to go with my summer tires, I was much more likely to put the summer tires back on -- throw them in the back of the car when I was going to have it inspected or have some other job done to it. With the tires only, and looking at adding $60-$80 to the bill for mounting, balancing, etc., I was much more likely to rationalize not doing it.

And TEO, I sincerely wish that Subaru still cars that were 4wd on demand, like they used to, but with irreplaceable cargo (aka kids) in the car, I'll go for the overkill.

Kevin, glad to hear that studs helped on your driveway. We've got a long, steep one too, and no concrete to worry about sliding on.

 

[MichaelJ]

I have a set of Blizzaks for by Subaru that works fine. They are a bit soft so they wear out faster so make sure you change them out as soon as the conditions allow you to. (i.e. don't run them year round).

I will second the recommendation for Blizzaks ... I have them for my Outback and the combination of the tires plus AWD made for a much safer and more reliable winter experience.

Second, a quick question: studs or no studs?

Studded tires are only legal in Massachusetts to use between Nov 1 and Apr 30 only, and braking/handling are pretty lousy on dry pavement. I believe you won't find studded tires for sale anywhere in the Commonwealth; you'll need to go out-of-state or online.

If you have to be out in conditions that require THAT kind of traction, get some chains.

My Outback's owner's manual says to not put chains on it, and I believe the warning applies in general to AWD vehicles. However, this reference says cable chains should be okay.

I got my Blizzaks online (mounted, balanced) through Tirerack and was very happy with the price and service.

 

[Jay H]

One other benefit to a dedicated set of rims I see are:

1)Less wear and tear on your original set of rims (salt, etc..) I'm sure with your $12 Saturn, you don't give a crap but more meaningful if you had nice rims or new ones.

2)How good do you trust your guy who mounts and balances wheels... there are better shop guys and better mountain machines, just like everything this world. if you get a bad operator, you can either have a shimmy at a certain speed that can be annoying to something that could be downright dangerous. Vastly the former but having a set of rims mounted and balanced the right way the first time may save a bit of a hassle. Also, the constant mounting and balancing can wear the rim...

Jay

 

[michaelb]

I'd skip the rims, since you may not keep the car long enough to make it worthwhile. I'd skip studs since although they are great on ice you won't be on ice enough vs the number of days you will be on wet or dry pavement with no ice or snow, when then can be worse.

I will go back to my original recommendation, for your use, and where you live, I think the best choice is to get an aggressive tire that is suitable for winter but could be run year round (if you are too lazy to take them off next spring, and they would likely be better than what you are running now). Like the WR Plus:

http://www.nokiantires.com/en/tire_wr.aspx?season=winter

They will not be as good as a dedicated snow tire like the blizzak or Hakka or even winter force, but will run and perform much better on dry or wet payment (where you spent most of your time, even in the winter). There is always a compromise, so you have to decide which ones you want to make.

 

[sapblatt]

Have you considered commuting in a helicopter, or hiking in Florida - at least for the winter?

 

[DrewKnight]

Four snows, no studs, and try not to be smug when you pass SUVs going up hill...

Commuting close to 1,000 miles around NE some weeks, I am completely sold on the value of four good snow tires on a front-wheel drive car like your Saturn, Doc...

I rely on Bridgestone Blizzaks and have for five years now, on a Mini Cooper S, and now a small Volvo wagon. Ride quality is fine, noise is tolerable, dry-road grip is more than sufficient, and I routinely (carefully) pass SUVs stuck going up hills or in ditches... SUV drivers, you see, think they can get by on four-wheel drive alone, and few bother to change to winter tires. I personally avoid studs because they only significantly improve performance in all-out icing conditions, and they make a godawful racket on dry and wet roads, which is where you spend 95% of your time.

I heartily recommend The Tire Rack as an excellent online source for tires. In my case, I typically buy four tires mounted on steel wheels, and rotate in October and April. Buying winter wheels pays for itself in change-overs after a couple years -- which may not be worth it if you're not keeping your Saturn.

This fall, I replaced my last round of Blizzaks with four new Blizzak REVO winter tires from Tire Rack -- four tires, on sale, with a $50 rebate card -- so I was into it for less than $300 with shipping. It looks like you could get 14" snows starting at about $55 each (the brands in your car's size -- Dunlop, Pirelli, etc.) are all highly reliable and have good performance.

Happy trails...

 

[DaveSunRa]

Wu,

My daughter lives in Montpelier. Drives around 40k per year, she's a drug rep. Come Thanksgiving she puts on the studded Hakkapeliittas. Leaves them on till end of March. She doesn't rotate tires and wears out the front tires by seasons end

 

[JOD]

get the snows!

I don’t have any hard facts like some of the others here just anecdotal information.

We bought a Subaru Outback Wagon 2.5i base model, 9/2005. My wife uses the car to drive R/T 50 miles/day 3 days per week. We put an average 26k miles per year on the car. During the winter we drive every weekend to the Whites R/T ~250 miles. Not including trips to races, our children are ski racers, I coach. We go to North Woodstock every weekend from Thanksgiving to Mid-April. We travel nearly every weekend to ski races all over NH. We leave some mornings at 5:00-5:30 traveling to races.

We drove it the first winter with the stock all season tires. It performed OK, not great. We thought it would be better.

Last November we bought rims and Bridgestone Blizzak REVO 1 snow tires from tirerack.com. It performed so much better.

Prior car was 1994 Volvo 850 wagon. First couple of snow storms we drove it with all season tires, it was like a deer on ice. We bought rims and snow tires, forget the brand/ model. It drove so much better.

Moral of the story, 4 snow tires in the mountains. Spend the extra $$ and get rims for easy change over when you want, fall/ spring. As it’s been mentioned search the junk yards for rims. We didn’t have any luck for either car finding rims off junkers.

I’ll have to look up TEO and challenge him to a snow rally!!! I can do donuts with an AWD

JOD