Spring Equinox and Winter Summits

[B the Hiker]

One year I opted out of Eisenhower and just did Pierce. I got back early enough to go add Willard to winter. (For my personal list) I'd say if you went up C-Path and down Edmands, and you had gotten to the parking lot you would have made it. Not sure on a backpacking trip. If I do Madison and Adams and spend the night at an RMC Cabin, then do Jefferson after the equinox, do the first two count for winter?

Many moons ago now I did the Kinsmans on the last day of winter, stayed at the shelter, and then went up and out over Cannon the next day. The Kinsmen were my last winter 48s. So I duly sent in my paperwork and applied for the patch, and was informed that, no, I hadn't come off the mountain in winter. Needless to say, the next year I did them dead smack in the middle of winter. It was an AMC hike, and my co-leader, unbeknownst to me, made homemade ice cream for each person, put them in individual zip lock bags, secretly carried them up in the trunk of his car and then his backpack, and we ate them at Lonesome Lake Hut. It was a touching way to finish.

 

[DayTrip]

Winter conditions are Winter conditions. If you climb Mt Adams, it is covered in snow and ice, it's 5 deg F and a sustained 30 mph wind is throwing you around that is Winter conditions whether it is Feb 4th or Oct 29th. I think of the conditions more as the degree of difficulty experienced and the date and time are irrelevant to that assessment. The conditions don't care what the date and time are. I use that yardstick when evaluating my climbs.

The distinction is the dreaded "list". If you are completing the hike for purposes of completing an official list, getting a patch, etc then you need to abide by whatever rules govern the program, regardless of how arbitrary that might seem. The program is the program. It's pretty much the opposite of what I described above. It is a summit climbed within a specific period of time. The conditions at that time are irrelevant. I only have 46 of 48 for my Winter 4k list but those 46 peaks have all met the official rules for the 4k list even though many of those climbs were in easier, Fall-like conditions and decidedly less difficult than a typical Winter ascent could have been.

My only official Winter ascent of Mt Flume was on a beautiful late DEC day, maybe mid 30's and bright sun at the top, near calm winds, packed microspike track all the way from Lincoln Woods. Was a crap ton of people on the summit hanging out and talking about "bagging Flume for Winter". I think I spent 45 minutes on the summit that day. A hike I had done the previous year, in early NOV, was a 5 deg day, cloudy with 2' of fresh snow in the flats from the outlook to the summit and a stout 25-30 mph wind hammering me with intermittent snow showers as I negotiated the edge of the rocks to the summit. For list purposes, my "Winter ascent" was in DEC. For me personally, it was that day in NOV.

 

[sierra]

Winter conditions are Winter conditions. If you climb Mt Adams, it is covered in snow and ice, it's 5 deg F and a sustained 30 mph wind is throwing you around that is Winter conditions whether it is Feb 4th or Oct 29th. I think of the conditions more as the degree of difficulty experienced and the date and time are irrelevant to that assessment. The conditions don't care what the date and time are. I use that yardstick when evaluating my climbs.

The distinction is the dreaded "list". If you are completing the hike for purposes of completing an official list, getting a patch, etc then you need to abide by whatever rules govern the program, regardless of how arbitrary that might seem. The program is the program. It's pretty much the opposite of what I described above. It is a summit climbed within a specific period of time. The conditions at that time are irrelevant. I only have 46 of 48 for my Winter 4k list but those 46 peaks have all met the official rules for the 4k list even though many of those climbs were in easier, Fall-like conditions and decidedly less difficult than a typical Winter ascent could have been.

My only official Winter ascent of Mt Flume was on a beautiful late DEC day, maybe mid 30's and bright sun at the top, near calm winds, packed microspike track all the way from Lincoln Woods. Was a crap ton of people on the summit hanging out and talking about "bagging Flume for Winter". I think I spent 45 minutes on the summit that day. A hike I had done the previous year, in early NOV, was a 5 deg day, cloudy with 2' of fresh snow in the flats from the outlook to the summit and a stout 25-30 mph wind hammering me with intermittent snow showers as I negotiated the edge of the rocks to the summit. For list purposes, my "Winter ascent" was in DEC. For me personally, it was that day in NOV.

All that being said, let me ask you this. If you climbed a peak for the first time, and it was in winter conditions yet not officially winter. Then later on someone asked you, have you done that peak in the winter? what would your answer be? Simple yes or no.

 

[TCD]

I've been following this thread and trying to decide if I care enough about it to post. But I guess I do. Disclosure - I'm not pursuing any winter lists. The only "rule" I care about is "hike your hike" and "tell the truth about it."

So I'll answer for DayTrip and others: If someone asked me if I did the hike in calendar winter, I would tell the truth. And if someone asked me if I did the hike in winter conditions, I would tell the truth. Whatever the particular "question asker" is worried about is just fine.

My editorial comment is that I think folks get their panties in a bunch about this whole thing because we live in the "little mountains." In the big ranges of the world, it's always winter conditions on the summit.

 

[jfb]

All that being said, let me ask you this. If you climbed a peak for the first time, and it was in winter conditions yet not officially winter. Then later on someone asked you, have you done that peak in the winter? what would your answer be? Simple yes or no.

My answer would be "How do you define winter?"

 

[jfb]

My editorial comment is that I think folks get their panties in a bunch about this whole thing because we live in the "little mountains." In the big ranges of the world, it's always winter conditions on the summit.

On some mountains there's a lot less daylight in winter, regardless of the weather.

 

[Salty]

On some mountains there's a lot less daylight in winter, regardless of the weather.

Or none.

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/@6627584

 

[DayTrip]

All that being said, let me ask you this. If you climbed a peak for the first time, and it was in winter conditions yet not officially winter. Then later on someone asked you, have you done that peak in the winter? what would your answer be? Simple yes or no.

My simple answer would be "no" because you are asking me a time based question - Did I do it in "Winter"? (Winter being a calendar based reference that has zero bearing on the actual weather experienced on the day, trail conditions, etc ). "Winter" and "Winter conditions" are not the same thing. Thought I was making that clear but apparently not. I don't find this distinction to be very important to me. The actual conditions of the climb are what I am measuring my performance against, not some arbitrary yardstick. Others may find that arbitrary yardstick to be an all important benchmark. As TCD basically stated, all you can do is answer the question truthfully in the context of whatever point of view the person asking frames it.

 

[jrbren]

All that being said, let me ask you this. If you climbed a peak for the first time, and it was in winter conditions yet not officially winter. Then later on someone asked you, have you done that peak in the winter? what would your answer be? Simple yes or no.

There are several "official" definitions of winter (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/winter.) It can "officially" can mean simply the cold half the year according to Merriam-Webster. Peak baggers usually adopt the "calendar" definition, solstice to equinox, probably because if you ask 100 climbers their definition of "winter conditions", you will get 100 different answers. That definition is completely inappropriate for the low lands of Massachusetts, let alone mountains of NH. I sure wish spring started on the equinox, I really do. It is not uncommon to have more winter like conditions in April then January. As a side note, I personally find the shoulder seasons to be tougher going then the heart of winter anyway, at least if I am not breaking trail, which I rarely am in the crowded White mountains. But I think wearing patches is more about perception then reality. To answer your question, because no one other then a peak bagger hung up on the calendar definition of winter would ask that question, I would not answer yes or no. I would just give them an approximate date and let them do with that info what they please.

 

[skiguy]

Guess it’s time to sharpen up your pencils.http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2018/03/01/the-definition-of-winter-for-k2-and-everest-climbs/

 

[sierra]

First off, I'm not a peak bagger. I did the 4k list , then went on to do whatever I wanted to do. Although, I'm casually working on the CO 14ers. I use calendar winter because its a fair benchmark for everyone. If you start counting ascents based on conditions, then everyone is free to define winter their own way. One mans epic winter climb is another mans walk up a snow covered hill. I'll give an example based on my definition of winter. As someone posted about us living in little mountains. It is not always winter in the high peaks. The difference between winter and non winter in the Himalayan peaks is night and day. Everest has been climbed roughly 4000 times, winter ascents around 15. In my post, I merely stated my opinion, no need to get so defensive. This board could defiantly "lighten up a bit". Daytrip I got your point, I just don't agree with it. That being said, you can define your climbs anyway you want, really doesn't matter to me.

 

[DayTrip]

I merely stated my opinion, no need to get so defensive. This board could defiantly "lighten up a bit". Daytrip I got your point, I just don't agree with it. That being said, you can define your climbs anyway you want, really doesn't matter to me.

I'm certainly not trying to sound defensive but I'm not quite sure what you "disgaree" with. If you ask me WHEN I did a climb, I'll tell you the date and time I did it. If you ask me WHAT THE CLIMB WAS LIKE I will provide a description of what the conditions were like, a subjective answer to a subjective question. If you were researching beta for a climb you had never done out in CO would you want someone's answer to be "It was February 14th" for an answer? Unless it is for qualification to a list or patch that seems like a useless answer. I don't prepare my gear, layers, route, etc based on a date. I do it based on the expected conditions.

It's all kind of a circular question anyway micro-analyzed to the extreme VFTT style. Most "Winter Condition" hikes are going to fall in calendar "Winter" anyway. And no doubt after someone asks you when they did a peak they will ask the follow up question about what the conditions were like. So all the info will be out there to be righteously judged however you see fit.

 

[skiguy]

In the spirit of lightning up I don’t think anyone here in this thread has alluded or stated that they are counting ascents based on conditions only and not official calendar seasonal dates for list completion purposes. The OP asked a valid question within the paradigm of “AMC RULES”. Which IMO has been answered appropriately. What has ensued is a discussion about conditions nothing more.

 

[sierra]

I'm certainly not trying to sound defensive but I'm not quite sure what you "disgaree" with. If you ask me WHEN I did a climb, I'll tell you the date and time I did it. If you ask me WHAT THE CLIMB WAS LIKE I will provide a description of what the conditions were like, a subjective answer to a subjective question. If you were researching beta for a climb you had never done out in CO would you want someone's answer to be "It was February 14th" for an answer? Unless it is for qualification to a list or patch that seems like a useless answer. I don't prepare my gear, layers, route, etc based on a date. I do it based on the expected conditions.

It's all kind of a circular question anyway micro-analyzed to the extreme VFTT style. Most "Winter Condition" hikes are going to fall in calendar "Winter" anyway. And no doubt after someone asks you when they did a peak they will ask the follow up question about what the conditions were like. So all the info will be out there to be righteously judged however you see fit.

When talking in a forum, I think points fail to be made in the strength they would be in person. I think we probably all agree on many of the above points. I simply think that defining winter based on the calendar is standard. Are peaks climbed outside of the "calendar" winter done in "winter" conditions, absolutely. I also strongly agree with another previous comment that climbs in the shoulder seasons can be the toughest of all seasons. Talking online is not my forte, face to face over a beer is more my style.

 

[DayTrip]

When talking in a forum, I think points fail to be made in the strength they would be in person. I think we probably all agree on many of the above points. I simply think that defining winter based on the calendar is standard. Are peaks climbed outside of the "calendar" winter done in "winter" conditions, absolutely. I also strongly agree with another previous comment that climbs in the shoulder seasons can be the toughest of all seasons. Talking online is not my forte, face to face over a beer is more my style.

Well we are definitely on the same page now. Speaking face to face is always better. Shoulder seasons are tough. And I do like beer.

 

[skiguy]

Talking online is not my forte, face to face over a beer is more my style.

Another vote for “Bowman’s Rt. 2 Craft Brewery”. A place for hikers and climbers to wind down! Leave your ego at the door.

 

[Grey J]

Since all of my hiking trips in NH have occurred between July and September, I guess I can only claim a "Summer 48".
No, hold on, it looks like I did Carrigain on September 23 so I can't even claim that. Ah well, I know I did them and that's all that matters to me.
I always enjoy following these discussions.

 

[DayTrip]

Another vote for “Bowman’s Rt. 2 Craft Brewery”. A place for hikers and climbers to wind down! Leave your ego at the door.

Is that new? I don't recall seeing this place. Is it literally near the Bowman lot or in town? Always love trying a new brewery.

 

[dug]

Since I am sure I've done a hike the weekend before Christmas almost every year for the last 25 (as part of my instructions to do what I can to help for the holidays was to GTFO of the way...) I can confidently say some of those were in late fall, some were in winter. It wasn't something I looked too deeply into, other than for the joke "hey after today it starts getting more light out". If it was what I alone considered to be "winter", I put a little * next to my now very old AMC guidebook so I can remember if I experienced that peak in winter weather. I may, and have, gone back to do that particular peak, or not. It sometimes depends on a game-time decision on the ride up, and if I'm with skis or knives for my feet.

So, if asked the question "Have I done such and such in winter", and it possibly happened on 12/19 but was full-on winter conditions (that I alone grade) then I'd answer yes.

If I have to answer that at the pearly gates, so be it. My intent is not to check them off a list, but to experience the mountain.

 

[TJsName]

There are several "official" definitions of winter (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/winter.) It can "officially" can mean simply the cold half the year according to Merriam-Webster. Peak baggers usually adopt the "calendar" definition, solstice to equinox, probably because if you ask 100 climbers their definition of "winter conditions", you will get 100 different answers. That definition is completely inappropriate for the low lands of Massachusetts, let alone mountains of NH. I sure wish spring started on the equinox, I really do. It is not uncommon to have more winter like conditions in April then January. As a side note, I personally find the shoulder seasons to be tougher going then the heart of winter anyway, at least if I am not breaking trail, which I rarely am in the crowded White mountains. But I think wearing patches is more about perception then reality. To answer your question, because no one other then a peak bagger hung up on the calendar definition of winter would ask that question, I would not answer yes or no. I would just give them an approximate date and let them do with that info what they please.

And meteorological winter Is December 1st thru the end of February.

Re: The 'Patch' - whomever gives out the patch gets to set the standard. So, AMC says start after the Winter Solstice, finish by Spring Equinox, those are the rules for that patch. Don't like it, make your own!

My simple answer would be "no" because you are asking me a time based question - Did I do it in "Winter"? (Winter being a calendar based reference that has zero bearing on the actual weather experienced on the day, trail conditions, etc ). "Winter" and "Winter conditions" are not the same thing. Thought I was making that clear but apparently not. I don't find this distinction to be very important to me. The actual conditions of the climb are what I am measuring my performance against, not some arbitrary yardstick. Others may find that arbitrary yardstick to be an all important benchmark. As TCD basically stated, all you can do is answer the question truthfully in the context of whatever point of view the person asking frames it.

I think that for anyone who hikes consistently in the wintry months (Nov-Apr) in the Whites, the they'll eventually do a lot of winter hikes in non-winter conditions, and non-winter hikes in winter conditions. I think that these things even out over time.