Summit or Bust?!?

[spaddock]

I've always been taught that a real mountaineer will always have a cut-off time and will not hesitate to follow it.

I am curious to know how many of you will continue on through darkness to finish a route?

I also think there is a difference between crummy weather and dangerous weather.


S.

 

[stoopid]

I've always been taught that a real mountaineer will always have a cut-off time and will not hesitate to follow it.

I am curious to know how many of you will continue on through darkness to finish a route?

I descended from Cliff Mtn (through a tangle of blowdown, in case you've never climbed it yourself) in the dark (with a headlamp of course), so I guess hiking in the dark doesn't matter much to me.

Low visibility, extreme temps (too hot or cold), and/or heavy precipitation may turn me away. Ice turned me away last year because I didn't come equipped with crampons.

Preparation will reduce risks should you get in over your head, but experience is the only true teacher of WHEN to turn around/abort, and to gain experience in anything means it has to happen to you... so, unless you're one of the lucky few who learn from other's mistakes, I guess it's a chicken or the egg scenerio... you have to make the mistake to learn from it. Sadly, mistakes in extreme conditions can cost a life. That's why many don't bother going out in the winter or during incliment weather. They figure the odds are greater to get injured, suffer hypothermia, exhaustion, etc. I don't subscribe to playing it so safe I won't go out in the winter, but I certainly bring a ton of "just in case" gear.

My apologies for babbling, I couldn't figure out another way of explaining this with fewer words

 

[spaddock]

I totally understand your experience explanation.

I had always planned my hikes carefully taking into consideration sundown until I had been out in the dark a few times. Then I started thinking, "OK as long as I get back to the access road by dark"... and it progressed from there.


S.

 

[stoopid]

I had always planned my hikes carefully taking into consideration sundown until I had been out in the dark a few times. Then I started thinking, "OK as long as I get back to the access road by dark"... and it progressed from there.

True, last year I did a number of easy/safer night hikes to get used to being out there at night. I actually LOVE night hiking, it's cooler and there's fewer people (and bugs during the warmer months). But I do forget that I did 'train' for being comfortable being in the woods in the dark. I remember feeling odd the first time I went a few miles into the darkness on a hike, but once I got out safely and had a good time it was no big thing.

 

[Neil]

Quote by Spaddock:
With the advent of lightweight LED's I now carry my headlamp on every hike

I used the same Petzl, vintage 1970's, headlamp for a long time in winter with no problems. You can either use a normal incandescent bulb or if you want to light the woods up a halogen bulb will suck the juice out of the 4.5 volt flat battery in less time than it takes Pin-Pin to climb Mt. Phelps. I decided to go modern this year and now sport a Meo 3 LED job. Super light and small- its great for reading and cooking but....
On my last outing I used it for a nocturnal exit and wouldn't recommend it if your not sure of the trail. All I got was a little pool of light at my feet (the salesman said it would project 10 yards) and wouldn't have been able to do any real navigating with it - like figuring out where does the trail really lie etc. My son had a different LED and his too only gave off a little pool of light. Maybe it takes 5 or 7 LEDs to get the job done.
Anybody got any comments on that?

 

[jbrown]

I haven't done much winter hiking at all, but have turned back on three hikes that I can think of. Two of the three were on the MacIntyres. One on the way to Marcy (sort of...)

First one was with my cousin. It was winter, and we just started late from Marcy Dam. Actually we turned back because of laziness. Looking back, we had picked one of the longest routes to get to Marcy and couldn't even do that hike in the summer now. It was one of our first hikes in the High Peaks.

Second one was with my brother. We planned to do Wright and maybe Algonquin. Approaching the treeline on Wright (if my memory is correct...) we turned back because of two reasons. One, there was a lovely storm approaching. We could see it dumping snow a little south of us. Second, my brother was vomiting and couldn't keep food in his stomach. He was working on less than 1/2 hour of sleep in 24, having worked all night.

Last was this summer in August. Same cousin as the first one and my brother, on Wright again, planning on doing Algonquin and Iroquois. At the summit of Wright, we realized that my cousin had forgotten a shell, and had only a long sleeved cotton shirt on. Summit temp was in the low 50s high 40s, with a stiff wind and complete cloud cover. I loaned him a vest and wool hat to keep his body temp up, but had to bail on the remainder of the hike as he wasn't prepared for the possible summit conditions on the other 2 peaks.

If in the same situations again, I would turn back again every time.

To echo a previous sentiment, Mohammed had it right.

Later,

Josh

P.S. In response to the headlamp sub-thread here. I bought a Black Diamond Ion, 2 LEDs, single 6 volt lithium battery. I have hiked at night with it, using a small titanium LED spotlight for long distance lighting when necessary. I agree it doesn't put out that much light, but have found it sufficient when supplemented minimally. The BD Moonlight has 5 LEDs and puts out much more light, sufficient alone in my opinion for night hiking. The best on in my gear closet is still the one I made, 3 red and 2 yellow LEDs. Look up the thread if you want to see pics. (Headamp, started by Bee.)

 

[funkyfreddy]

I've turned back a number of times because of the weather, once or twice because of bad vibes....... There may be some things in life worth dying for, but a mountain summit isn't one of them.

 

[Bob Kittredge]

I tend to be conservative when I'm solo hiking and more so when I'm leading a group. Even though I've turned a group back on a few occasions (in crappy weather), I've never had any complaints.

 

[John H Swanson]

I too have no issues with turning back, and I have a number of times. The older I get the more I consider it.

At one point I calcuated my turn around rate - the number of hikes that I started with strong intentions on keeping with an itinerary and turned back. Meaning I didn't count the times I decided against going for the bonus peak if it was spelled out in my mind as an option.

My winter turn around rate for serious mountain hiking (dacks, VT, NH, ME, etc, but not local NYC area hikes) was about 4-5% or 1 out of 20-25 hikes. For me this represents a nice balance between presistance and caution.

This rate was calculated when I was doing much of my hiking solo. Thinking back to those turn arounds I remember most of them to be with other hikers. Usually, the reason for turning around was related to the conditions.

I did not count the times I turned around before leaving the car. Had a few of those days when the road conditions or vehicle performance convinced me to stay indoors.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Turn-Around Times

I remember the first hike that I did with JSwanson and Sue Eilers was on Mt Abraham (Maine) late one December, where we encountered really deep unbroken snow the higher we went, and ignored three or four turn-around times because we "knew that we had to be close." We were well after dark in a white out by the time we reached the old fire tower wreckage. Amazingly, the summit photos came out ok with a flash camera. We always knew that we could bail out any time, even after dark, and follow our broken trail back down. In retrospect, I am really glad that we made that summit, although I am not sure that I would have pushed onwards had I been solo.

 

[spaddock]

Maybe it takes 5 or 7 LEDs to get the job done.
Anybody got any comments on that?

I use a Petzl Tikka Plus 4 LED. I have never tried the 3 LED model in the woods so I'm not sure how it performs. I bought mine for a cold hike in March. I only recently replaced the batteries as I was starting to wonder how much burn time was on them, they never actually died.

Almost all of my hikes this year have had some night hiking at some point or the other. Mostly the hike in's on Friday night. I've used it coming down Allen, coming down Marshall, coming back from Flowed Lands to Allen campsite, hiking into Flowed Lands from Upper Works and coming down from Seward, all in the dark.

It always performed well. The trailless peaks were more difficult, Allen and Seward took me a while to find the proper routes at times. The marked trails were pretty simple as the markers light up bright.

I carry a GPS so combined with this lamp I bring a bunch of extra batteries. I like the piece of mind knowing I have a lot of burn time to "play" with.

Before this headlamp I used a Petzl Zoom and Polar. I never felt comfortable with the amount of burn time and would always carry an extra 4.5 volt battery. My new option saves me a lot of weight in my pack. I don't hesitate to put it in my pocket even on short hikes.

They have some new hybrids now that I haven't looked at, they have a few LED's and then a new super LED for when it really gets tough, of course burn times decrease when that is pumping. I've heard the Black Diamond model is pretty good.


S.

 

[Butch79]

Wise advice from everyone who posted previously.
My own attitude's actually become a little different, though, but then again, I'm a total lightweight next to the Himalayas-in-winter types here whom I think the OP was querying -- strictly a summer-fall Adirondacks guy (yes, yes, not that the risk there is *entirely* nil, either). I've turned back on many occasions in the past, usually leading a group of rookies. But as obligations grow and finances shrink, I'm down to about one chance a year to even *get* to the High Peaks, so a 380-mile drive without a summit at the end of it is just a waste of three of four days. And as the time left to me shrinks as well, it's literally only hell or high water, now, that'll turn me back from a summit. Perhaps at least in this way fortunately, no one I know wants to climb with me anymore (can't really blame 'em), except for my dog -- so I don't have to worry about anyone else but him, and as long as he's hale and hearty and as eager for the top as I am, yeah, "summit or bust." No great loss if I never make it back down, although I'd feel guilty from the beyond, I suppose, to obligate the S&R guys to fetch my carcass.

Happy trails --
Uncle Butch