Tenting near Galehead Hut

[pegprimak]

Anybody know anything about tenting near Galehead? I know you can't camp within the 1/4mile forest protection zone. But outside that, I'm wondering if I might find a site somewhere along the Frost Trail. Feel free to private message me; I can understand not wanting to post anything in a public forum. I know it'd be a dry campsite, but if it's somewhere near Galehead, we can carry water from there. Thanks for any wisdom you can provide.
--junebug

 

[Salty]

Just be aware if you're not already, the Frost Trail is entirely within the Pemi Wilderness, so you need to be 200 feet off trail. The 4000 foot contour is 0.25 from the hut as the crow flies, so the only possible place would be outside of 200 feet from the trail on the northwest to south side of the cone. Anywhere else and the contours do not look great for camping.

 

[nartreb]

Yeah, the slopes are pretty bad in the area. I drew circles on the map and it is legal to camp 200 ft due north of the galehead summit, where the slopes are as good as you'll get (but not exactly good for tents). There's also a lot dense evergreens in that area. You might be better off with a hammock, but on the other hand the summit gets enough wind that the trees might not support one.

For a good night's sleep, I think I'd rather drop down to 13 Falls. (You could stop partway, say on the shoulder at 2962', but at that point you're only one mile and {500' of elevation} from water and tent platforms.)

 

[peakbagger]

When I hiked the Twin Brook Trail a few years ago I saw many potential campsites just off the ridge. It is in the wilderness area and the RUA for the hut must be respected but my guess is ther are legal sites but odd are you need to fill up with water at the hut.

 

[B the Hiker]

It would be helpful to explain why you don't want to stay at Thirteen Falls or Garfield tentsites.

If you've never been, that neck of the woods makes it mighty hard to hike two hundred feet off trail, and a LOT of people hike through there. If people are not using the hardened sites provided for us, that area has the potential to degrade very quickly.

 

[JustJoe]

Just be aware if you're not already, the Frost Trail is entirely within the Pemi Wilderness, so you need to be 200 feet off trail. The 4000 foot contour is 0.25 from the hut as the crow flies, so the only possible place would be outside of 200 feet from the trail on the northwest to south side of the cone. Anywhere else and the contours do not look great for camping.

Not according to AMC maps. Galehead and the Frost Trail appear to be completely out of the Pemi. Wilderness. Which I think by design, you'll find anywhere along the AT, wilderness boundary's are at least 200' from most trails. I believe I've seen herd paths to sights on the .6 mile section of the GRT between the junction of the Gale River Trail and the hut. There're literally everywhere along the AT.

 

[pegprimak]

Just a quick followup. Here's our revised plan...
Hike in to 13 Falls and talk to the caretaker there. If they recommend not trying for a place just outside the 1/4 mile around Galehead, we'll instead hike up the Franconia Brook Trail. When we get to the ridgeline, we'll head toward Garfield. There's supposed to be a water source a short way down that trail. If we find it and there's water, we'll fill up and reverse course, hiking toward Galehead. FarOut thinks there are several places to tent along the ridgeline within the first mile or so of that stream. The topo map certainly looks promising in that stretch, so we'll probably find something. The next day we'll continue over to Guyot. If the water source turns out to be dry, we'll keep going south to the Garfield Ridge shelter and tent there. This seems like a fairly robust plan, so we'll likely stick with it unless somebody either on this forum or at 13 Falls gives us more hope of finding a place closer to Galehead. FYI, the Wilderness officially starts 66 feet south of the ridgeline trail per the last post in the thread "official boundary description of Pemigewasset Wilderness", so the 200foot requirement doesn't apply here. Tenting is legal within the first 66 feet of the trail on the south side and whatever you want on the north side. That said, we'll likely try for 200 feet if we can and if not, then at least not visible from the trail.
--junebug

 

[maineguy]

The next day we'll continue over to Guyot. If the water source turns out to be dry, we'll keep going south to the Garfield Ridge shelter and tent there. if
--junebug

I do not understand how you can head south from Guyot and arrive at the Garfield Ridge shelter

 

[B the Hiker]

Just a quick followup. Here's our revised plan...
Hike in to 13 Falls and talk to the caretaker there. If they recommend not trying for a place just outside the 1/4 mile around Galehead, we'll instead hike up the Franconia Brook Trail. When we get to the ridgeline, we'll head toward Garfield. There's supposed to be a water source a short way down that trail. If we find it and there's water, we'll fill up and reverse course, hiking toward Galehead. FarOut thinks there are several places to tent along the ridgeline within the first mile or so of that stream. The topo map certainly looks promising in that stretch, so we'll probably find something. The next day we'll continue over to Guyot. If the water source turns out to be dry, we'll keep going south to the Garfield Ridge shelter and tent there. This seems like a fairly robust plan, so we'll likely stick with it unless somebody either on this forum or at 13 Falls gives us more hope of finding a place closer to Galehead. FYI, the Wilderness officially starts 66 feet south of the ridgeline trail per the last post in the thread "official boundary description of Pemigewasset Wilderness", so the 200foot requirement doesn't apply here. Tenting is legal within the first 66 feet of the trail on the south side and whatever you want on the north side. That said, we'll likely try for 200 feet if we can and if not, then at least not visible from the trail.
--junebug

I'm getting the impression you're new. Let me give you some advice.
Stay at hardened sites. Those are sites are there for reasons.
a. They have water sources;
b. They have bear boxes;
c. You have the safety of sleeping around other human beings, and the pleasure of meeting other folks;
d. There are caretakers to look after the locations;
e. You have an outhouse;
f. You have a wash station;
g. It minimizes environmental degradation;
h. You have perfect spots to set up a tent.

The Whites are not simply not capable of having people make their own campsites. Yes, you went onto an app and found others who did--almost all of which are illegal because they are mere feet off the trail, but that doesn't mean you should.

In any event, I get the impression you haven't been up there before. Finding a spot to set up a tent is going to be quite a challenge. Walking 200 feet off trail is hard enough, let alone with a full backpack. You'll see it when you get there, but you will be challenged to find one square yard of forest floor without a plant or a rock (neither of which will you be able to displace), let alone enough to set up a tent.

Please take my advice, stay at the tentsites up there. At least for your first trip. They are there for a reason.

Brian

 

[JoshandBaron]

There is no shortage of dispersed sites along the AT. It's usually a safe bet that there will be one at or near most FPA boundaries along the trail. Check the comments on Guthook for the hut. There is no 200' rule along the GRT or Twinway so the thrubie "stealth" sites outside the hut and campsite FPA's are entirely legal unless they're signed otherwise.

 

[TEO]

FYI, the Wilderness officially starts 66 feet south of the ridgeline trail per the last post in the thread "official boundary description of Pemigewasset Wilderness", so the 200foot requirement doesn't apply here. Tenting is legal within the first 66 feet of the trail on the south side and whatever you want on the north side. That said, we'll likely try for 200 feet if we can and if not, then at least not visible from the trail.
--junebug

IMPORTANT: Camping is PROHIBITED within 200 feet of a trail or water source in the White Mountain National Forest REGARDLESS of whether or not you are in a Wilderness. https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/whitemountain/recreation/camping-cabins

Please heed Brian's sage advice. Each of our actions impact the future condition of the WMNF. With the high use that the WMNF sees, it is all the more important that we minimize our impact.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I do not understand how you can head south from Guyot and arrive at the Garfield Ridge shelter

South on the AT isn't always south on the map.

 

[JoshandBaron]

IMPORTANT: Camping is PROHIBITED within 200 feet of a trail or water source in the White Mountain National Forest REGARDLESS of whether or not you are in a Wilderness. https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/whitemountain/recreation/camping-cabins

Please heed Brian's sage advice. Each of our actions impact the future condition of the WMNF. With the high use that the WMNF sees, it is all the more important that we minimize our impact.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf This seems like a useless document for them to refer us to if there is a blanket rule.

 

[peakbagger]

IMPORTANT: Camping is PROHIBITED within 200 feet of a trail or water source in the White Mountain National Forest REGARDLESS of whether or not you are in a Wilderness. https://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/whitemountain/recreation/camping-cabins

Please heed Brian's sage advice. Each of our actions impact the future condition of the WMNF. With the high use that the WMNF sees, it is all the more important that we minimize our impact.

Sorry to bring up a repeated subject but the WMNF published regulations do not agree with your statement. The website states a blanket 200 foot rule but the referenced Backcountry Document https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf does not. As I have stated before the backcountry document is an exercise in obfuscation either intentionally or unintentionally. Page 2 of the document is Leave no Trace "guidelines" that have no legal standing currently in the WMNF, yes Kharma and good practice calls for maintaining a minimum 200 foot, but as you will see on Page 3 the 200 foot regulation is only to called out in specific areas (copied below from the FS backcountry document).

o Camping, Wood or Charcoal
Fires within 200 feet of:
The following bodies of water:
• Black Pond
• Black Mountain Pond
• East Branch of the Pemigewasset River from
the Wilderness boundary to its crossing with
Thoreau Falls Trail, including islands
• The stream along the Smart’s Brook Trail
from Rte. 49, 1.5 miles to the log landing
The following trails:
• Ammonoosuc Ravine Trail
• Appalachian Trail corridor from the summit
of Mt. Moosilauke to the Connecticut River
(except at shelters)
• Intersection of Cedar Brook and Hancock
Notch Trails to the junction with Hancock
Loop Trail
• Champney Falls Trail from the trailhead to
Champney Falls
• Falling Waters Trail
• Franconia Falls Trail
• Liberty Springs Trail
• Lower Falls Trail
• Old Bridle Path
• Valley Way from its intersection with the
Scar Trail to Madison Hut
• Wild River Trail from Wild River
Campground to 1 mile south


Note the AT is specifically referenced south of Mt Moosilaukee but not north. and the OPs intended route is not in any of the listed areas.

Feel free to start another thread on if the WMNF backcountry regulations need to be changed and I will gladly participate in it but realize at this point in time the 200 foot rule is the exception on most non wilderness trails in the whites.

 

[dug]

I'm less concerned with a tent-site 200 feet off the trail which will never be seen or used again than 1000 people on a summit on any given day.

 

[TEO]

Sorry to bring up a repeated subject but the WMNF published regulations do not agree with your statement. The website states a blanket 200 foot rule but the referenced Backcountry Document https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf does not. As I have stated before the backcountry document is an exercise in obfuscation either intentionally or unintentionally. Page 2 of the document is Leave no Trace "guidelines" that have no legal standing currently in the WMNF, yes Kharma and good practice calls for maintaining a minimum 200 foot, but as you will see on Page 3 the 200 foot regulation is only to called out in specific areas (copied below from the FS backcountry document).

You are incorrect. First, the rules on the website are clear. Second, the backcountry rules are redundant, not contradictary on the PDF you link to. Nowhere does it specify that the 200' rule is only a guideline. Third, a call to the WMNF Supervisor's Office in Campton confirmed that the 200' rule applies to the entire WMNF, not just Wilderness areas.

 

[JoshandBaron]

You are incorrect. First, the rules on the website are clear. Second, the backcountry rules are redundant, not contradictary on the PDF you link to. Nowhere does it specify that the 200' rule is only a guideline. Third, a call to the WMNF Supervisor's Office in Campton confirmed that the 200' rule applies to the entire WMNF, not just Wilderness areas.

Can you point us to the forest order? The only one I can find is https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd644808.pdf and it is missing exhibit B. The USFS maps showing all FPAs is consistent with the Camping Rules PDF.

 

[peakbagger]

The problem with calling the WMNF is frequently the person you talk to is the least qualified to supply info, frequently volunteers, seasonal employees, or staff new to the area. I do know several people who have been handed a copy of the attachment at ranger stations when inquiring about legal campsites and a past volunteer I knew did the same when asked. Show me a link to more official document then the Backcountry Rules and I might change my mind and several others who have thought what you thought.

I do not agree with your opinion that the Backcountry Camping Rules document is redundant versus contradictory, IMHO the rules are the rules and take precedence over a page on website that may or may not have been vetted by anyone.

Note the wording on page 2. If whomever wrote it had changed the "or" to and "and" it would be far better LNT guideline. There are numerous heavily impacted sites especially along the AT literally just a step off the trail which would meet the first part of the statement yet few if any are noticed no camping or any enforcement exists. The many sites on the ridge above Liberty Springs behind the "boulder" were closed due to the 1/4 mile rule, not the 200 foot rule and Liberty Spring overflow campers have been directed by AMC caretakers to the ridge just outside the 1/4 mile area heading towards Liberty. Its pretty easy to find these spots as the majority are reportedly available on electronic guides routinely used by thruhikers. Many of the so called overflow sites on the spur trail to Guyot are similarly well within the 200 foot rule. Same with the Zealand Hut overflow sites and the Pinkham overflow sites on Old Jackson road.

Camp at sites that have already been heavily
impacted (but be sure it’s a legal site),
or 200 feet from trails and water
sources. Avoid moderately impacted
sites where your visit could create
more damage.

I have no doubt that on the very rare occasion that the WMNF actually wrote a ticket for this type of violation in the actual backcountry, and someone went to the trouble to challenge it,(few do) that it would be thrown out. Talk to any long term ranger and they will admit that the absolute last resort is pull out the citation book, its predominantly a final "club" used for folks blatantly in violation of the rules or if the new forest district supervisor decides it is the "violation of the week". When the infamous district ranger who pushed to remove the Pemi suspension bridge was trying to make her name, she assigned a ranger to roam the then Wilderness trail (now Lincoln Woods trail) writing outfitter guide violations and Pemi RUA violations, one of them followed us about 4 miles around dusk one evening and once he caught us on a break and we talked to him for a bit he admitted he really disliked the duty as he had far better things to do but the new "boss" wanted citations. A feew years later the battle of the Owl went on for a season with a FS employee even posting on VFTT begging for it to stop as they were wasting valuable time they could be elsewhere. Once that district ranger got promoted to her preretirement post in CA things calmed down.

Having participated on getting ready for a rescue of a couple and their dog who were blatantly violating the rules, the rangers had decided they would write tickets to both parties and then admitted that they knew they would get thrown out if challenged but that meant a drive back up to NH to hang out at the Federal District court on a work day. They figured the lost work was probably worth more than the tickets.

Pretty simple to solve, revise the documents they reference on their website to be far less confusing and in alignment with current WMNF policies.

 

[maineguy]

South on the AT isn't always south on the map.

True. But, the OP is talking about checking out the water source at Guyot so I assume he means the campsite there. That's not off the AT, it's off the Bondcliff Trail. And, the OP says that if it is dry, they will "continue" going south to Garfield Ridge shelter.

 

[Salty]

Not according to AMC maps. Galehead and the Frost Trail appear to be completely out of the Pemi. Wilderness. Which I think by design, you'll find anywhere along the AT, wilderness boundary's are at least 200' from most trails. I believe I've seen herd paths to sights on the .6 mile section of the GRT between the junction of the Gale River Trail and the hut. There're literally everywhere along the AT.

View attachment 6890

This is the Forest Service Map: https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=44.18477,-71.57333&z=16&b=f16a showing it to be in wilderness (66 feet south of the AT as I recall). Likewise USGS maps: https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=44.16491,-71.58073&z=13&b=t

You can see the cutout made just for the Guyot Shelter.