The Cog is in the news again for potenitally unpermitted building

[jniehof]

Walter Graf from the AMC appears to be encouraging a update to the summit master plan

That would sounds like a reasonable path forward given that disagreements among parties seem to be growing and it might make sense to get it all out there and sort things out. Of course part of the tension seems to be coming down to differences of interpretation on previous agreements and where they might contradict each other, so throwing another negotiated document on the pile might not do it.

Given that the first recorded winter ascent of Washington was to serve legal papers, this is hardly new. High demand for limited space in a fragile environment.

 

[TEO]

No reporters bias or false information and facts.

Please keep your political views off of the forum.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Thanks for that link to the PDF Peakbagger. Very informative.

In looking at the photo of the planned extension, I was struck by the scale of the Auto road's parking lots. The occupy a huge amount of summit real estate. Much more than the railway for sure. Why has no one complained about that?

Question: Can you park overnight in one of those lots and hike to a hut or a campsite?

I believe the Cog limits passenger time on the summit (2 hr?) . Not sure about auto road.

From the Auto Road website: "ALL vehicles must leave the summit no later than 45 minutes after closing time and continue directly to the base. "

 

[peakbagger]

Thanks for that link to the PDF Peakbagger. Very informative.

In looking at the photo of the planned extension, I was struck by the scale of the Auto road's parking lots. The occupy a huge amount of summit real estate. Much more than the railway for sure. Why has no one complained about that?

Question: Can you park overnight in one of those lots and hike to a hut or a campsite?

I believe the Cog limits passenger time on the summit (2 hr?) . Not sure about auto road.

I have heard complaints at one point with respect to the autoroad parking lots and their expansion. I don't know the history of when and how they were built or the underlying agreements that are in place. They are cut in somewhat into the terrain and below the summit development so they are arguably less visually intrusive at the level where a typical ground based person would be able to observe them. The photo is taken well above ground level with the lots in the foreground so their presence is definitely more visible. I think Ball Crag shields them from view on Adams and Madison and I do not remember them begin very obvious from Wildcat since they are below the summit profile.

I wasn't living in the area when the new state park building was planned but individuals I have talked to who did have some involvement have stated that during the process the concept of an overall planning approach to the summit as a whole was put in place. IMHO, if the auto road was coming forward with a proposal to expand their parking to what it is today they would get the same pushback as the Cog appears to be on the track extension. I believe the approach has been to minimize future impacts using a master plan while allowing the existing impacts to remain. This was used recently for the Yankee building replacement study which arguably has far more impact to the summit then the Cog extension. My understanding is that management of the autoroad parking lots are delegated by the state to the autoroad. I do not believe overnight parking is allowed. I expect the question comes up frequently given the popularity of people going to stay the night at Lake of the Clouds via the summit. Given the auto road's capacity is limited to available parking at the summit I expect they would not allow overnight or multiday parking as that one space could be turned over multiple times on a busy day. On many nice weekends the autoroad has to manage each space and limits new traffic from going up the road until traffic leaves. It causes quite a backup.

Stated in the BDS article is that the cog currently has to manage guests due to lack of space at the summit and will continue to do so even with the extension. Given the substantial increase in ridership of the Cog from the introduction of the "biodiesel blend"electric Cogs, the Cog is setting record ridership every year and the owner has stated publicly that his goal is to further increase ridership by strategic track upgrades and possibly putting in additional parallel track. I am not aware of any daily limits on parking at the summit for personal cars by the autoroad, I am unsure if the van service has any limits but expect they need to do something to get folks down at the end of the day. Autoroad guests do dayhikes while parked along autoroad property, in particular its used by many to access the Alpine Garden.

The Cog and Autoroad are both in the same situation that despite owning the land at the base of the mountain and the land heading up to the summit they do not own the summit and are both constrained by capacity constraints at the summit. Both are profit making corporations and the profit motive is expand the ridership to maximize profits. One party is trying to expand their ridership substantially and the other party feels that their access to the summit is being degraded by this. The state ultimately is the arbitrator on how to use what is a limited resource with Coos County having some regional control over new private development on the summit. The state is planning to replace the Yankee building so they can do what they please with respect to Coos county so the only regulated entities left are the Cog, the Autoroad and possibly some area assigned to the communication entity outside of the proposed Yankee footprint.

 

[David Metsky]

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Please keep your political views off of the forum.

 

[TEO]

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Will do. Thanks, David.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Is there a possible compromise?

Could the railroad switch be moved down a bit, the platform built lower on the summit cone, and the "extra length" of track in front of the Adams building demo'd? The platform wouldn't need to be elevated, would it?

This solution would keep ALL of the stated benefits of the project for the COG Railways visitors (Eliminate congestion in front of Sherman Adams building, easier entrance/exit for passengers, Ability to fasten train to trestle/platform in the event of emergency or weather event, Compliance with Americans with Disabilities Act, and Improved safety of loading and unloading of passengers) while also not requiring the Auto Road visitors from having to pass under the platform. I am assuming that forcing the Auto Road visitors to go under the platform is a bug, not a feature.

What am I missing?

 

[ChrisB]

...The Cog and Autoroad are both in the same situation...

In the PDF Presby refers to ADA (Americans with Disability Act) compliance for the construction of the new platform.

Does the Autoroad have any ADA mandates that require it to deliver van passengers directly to the summit rather than to a drop off in the upper parking lot?

All self-driving road customers must use the stairs to access the true summit.

Seems like separating these two competing interests might be wise.

 

[peakbagger]

I believe autoroad vans and other vehicles with handicapped authorization are allowed to pickup and discharge passengers at the summit. I think I have a photo of my 96 year old dad with folks from his assisted living facility with their van to the side taken from the summit entrance. They did not get rolled up from the parking lot as the grade is too steep for ADA even if mixing wheelchairs and summit traffic is not considered a bad idea.

I thought of a solution similar to Toms suggestion but it causes as many problems as it solves. The 5' accessway under the trestle was reportedly not in the original concept, at the planning board meeting the lawyer for the cog mentioned that this was added to retain access for the autoroad. A five foot wide tunnel is not real wide given two way hiker and autoroad pedestrian traffic. I would expect more like 8 to 10 feet is far more acceptable. The problem with dropping the platform is that the autoroad loses the tunnel and the pedestrian traffic needs to go south into the roadway adjacent to the stage office. One major failing of the rendering on page 7 of the cog presentation is the lack of rolling stock shown which substantially increases the overall visual impact. The situation shown of people outdoors on the platform will rarely exist during the day as the cog is planning to have cars there all day . The best way to visualize the impact may be the 360 degree view on google earth https://www.360cities.net/ge_image/mtwashington?utm_source=google_earth&utm_medium=all_images If you scroll to the east and imagine a row of cog cars and engines roughly the same height as the stage office all the way to the end of the abandoned track, the impact is considerably degraded views east from the summit. Given the limited access to the outer platform, its effectively become a private viewing deck for cog customers waiting to board while degrading the views of people exiting the state park building.

When I look at the summit I see that the state park building was effectively built to service the cog with the autoroad getting the short end of the stick due the right of way arrangement in place at the time. Cog customers have a relatively sheltered short walk to the cars compared to the long exposed walk to the parking lots. There are many stories of articles of clothing heading towards Alpine Garden on windy days from autoroad customers and in general the summit experience for some on bad days is far worse for auto road customers. Hikers are unfortunately an annoying afterthought. IMHO the track extension and the addition of more rolling stock wrapping around the summit further degrades the public views from the summit.

 

[Quietman]

Question: Can you park overnight in one of those lots and hike to a hut or a campsite?

From the auto road site:

CAN I PARK ON THE SUMMIT OVERNIGHT AND HIKE TO THE LAKES OF THE CLOUDS HUT?
Yes. You are required to alert the attendant at the Toll House that you are going to park overnight.

 

[peakbagger]

So will the train platform be higher than the actual summit?

Reading the print I see the 6264 foot contour line running through a granite monument near the southern end of the proposed extension. Adding 11 feet to the ground elevation yields an elevation of 6275 feet. The summit elevation is 6288. Now subtract the two and the difference between the summit and the top of the platform is 13 feet. So now we need to guess how high a cog railroad car is. Logically the car is going to be a minimum 8' clear span from the door sill. Its got a curved roof so add 2' for the roof structure. So lets use 10' from the door sill to top of the roof. So rough numbers, the top of the railroad cars will be just about 3' below the summit of Mt Washington. The actual engines are taller, so conceivably the engines cab and the stack will be higher than the summit elevation if parked on the end of the trestle.

 

[CaptCaper]

Thanks for that link to the PDF Peakbagger. Very informative.



I believe the Cog limits passenger time on the summit (2 hr?) . Not sure about auto road.

One hour for Cog folks. You can stay longer but you may not get a seat or get down as the 1 hr folks have priority. And they fill up fast on busy days especially later when they want to come down. Can't imagine them leaving you up there but they put the fear of God into you. They told us we might need to walk down the auto road or call a taxi. It works for them having a order. The summit is the hardest park of the Cog's crew. Dealing with the crowds and who gets to come down first,etc. saw plenty freezing waiting in line then having to stay for the next train and freezing again from the "pecking" order they have to have for law and order. Again it works.
The Cog is great cause many can't handle driving that funky auto road.

 

[NHClimber]

Cog vs. Autoroad -- a microcosm of the greater battle for limited earth resources.

 

[peakbagger]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

For those who cant handle driving the autoroad, there is always the option of taking the guided van tours. The vans also run end of day trips for those stranded at the summit.The price goes up as the hour gets later.

 

[ChrisB]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

...the vans also run end of day trips for those stranded at the summit.The price goes up as the hour gets later.

Wow, demand pricing!! How hip.

Sounds like a great opportunity for a local climber moonlighting as an Uber /Lyft driver.

 

[dave.m]

All of this makes me want to climb Adams. Or West Bond.

 

[ChrisB]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

... the argument that free access and unrestricted demand for a finite resource ultimately reduces the resource through over-exploitation, temporarily or permanently. This occurs because the benefits of exploitation accrue to individuals or groups, each of whom is motivated to maximize use of the resource to the point in which they become reliant on it (Obs, Auto Road, Cog), while the costs of the exploitation are borne by all those to whom the resource is available (which may be a wider class of individuals than those who are exploiting it).

So where do we hikers fit in this scenario? Exploiters or "those to whom the resource is available?"

 

[Tom_Murphy]

... the argument that free access and unrestricted demand for a finite resource ultimately reduces the resource through over-exploitation, temporarily or permanently. This occurs because the benefits of exploitation accrue to individuals or groups, each of whom is motivated to maximize use of the resource to the point in which they become reliant on it (Obs, Auto Road, Cog), while the costs of the exploitation are borne by all those to whom the resource is available (which may be a wider class of individuals than those who are exploiting it).

So where do we hikers fit in this scenario? Exploiters or "those to whom the resource is available?"

Based on the number of TP blooms in the Spring at the summit, Madison hut, and LOC Hut...exploiters

 

[JoshandBaron]

Based on the number of TP blooms in the Spring at the summit, Madison hut, and LOC Hut...exploiters

Could be worse. Could be overflowing barrels of excrement.

oh, wait...

 

[peakbagger]

I see in the local paper that the Cog is appearing before the Coos County planning board to get a permit after the fact presumably for the leantos they built previously at the next Coos County planning board meeting on Dec 11th. They are also applying for a permit for a new 30,000 square foot maintenance building at the base station. The maintenance building should not be an issue but the sheds most likely will be as they are in a special zoning district where new development is typically not permitted. The lean tos were reportedly used as warming sheds for skiers brought up by the cog. This is probably a test case for justifying new construction in this zone by arguing that its an existing use. I expect the board will have to tread carefully as this could establish precedent for future high elevation buildings.

The big track rebuild/extension/expansion at the summit strangely is not mentioned.

The agenda isnt up on the website yet.