The verdict on Siggs in winter

[sleeping bear]

After much debate on water bottles I finally made the switch to Siggs. I made the switch just as I left to spend 9 days in Canada winter camping. I was pretty apprehensive about how the bottles would work, but I had been thinking about the switch for quite a while.

My main concerns with metal bottles has been that they would freeze solid quickly and damage the bottle. I was also concerned about the metal freezing to my lips when I went to take a drink.

After 9 days in Canada, one night reaching -10 F and one reaching -20 F, I have no reservations in saying that Sigg bottles are just fine for winter use.

Before leaving on the trip I made custum bottle holders for both the 1 liter and 1.5 liter using closed cell foam and duct tape. The holders were designed to let the bottles sit upside down at all times and included several donuts on the bottom to support the neck and cap. The top of the holder included a flip up lid attached with duct tape and a carrying strap.

Whenever I filled the bottles it was with boiling water, typically once in the morning and then once before going to bed. At night I would either store the bottles in the duffel bag on my sled or inside the tent. I also wrapped electrical tape around the mouth of both bottles for lip freezing prevention. I think that step may be unnecessary as I tried on several occasions to get my lips to freeze to the bottle and it never worked. I think the aluminum is thin enough and conducts the heat too well to freeze to skin. I could be wrong.

Only once during a hike when the bottle was mostly empty did I experience any ice within the bottle. When filled with hot water the bottles conduct so much heat they can be hard to hold onto. The other side is that they make much better handwarmers than Nalgene bottles.

Photos-
Bottles
Holder open
Holder closed

 

[Woody]

Why

Sleeping Bear,
What was the reason for the switch to the sigg bottles? Weight or durability or something else?

 

[WinterWarlock]

Sigg Warning

When my kids go to summer camp, I used to freeze water bottles (Nalgenes) for them - never a problem. Do NOT let the Sigg freeze or the metal will rupture, as both of mine did. I then read the little note that came with the bottle, and sure enough, it says to not freeze them.

I'll stick with all those yucky Nalgene chemicals, thank you.

 

[sardog1]

I've used Sigg fuel bottles for years and they're well made and durable. (Sigg no longer manufactures them.) But I've always had one problem with the water bottle line. They sell red bottles, among other colors. This is potentially hazardous, especially when traveling with others, in that the red water bottle and the older version of the red fuel bottle can easily be mistaken for each other. (The newer fuel bottles were plainly labelled as such.)

So, if you're in a group and reach for a red aluminum bottle, it might be best to sniff the contents first. Water in the stove is an inconvenience -- fuel in your GI tract means the trip is over.

 

[DougPaul]

I've used Sigg fuel bottles for years and they're well made and durable.

I second sardog1's comments.

Except, there was a weakness in the construction of the old bottles. If pumped to too high a pressure, they could fracture near the neck, releasing fuel right next to a potentially burning stove... I now use MSR bottles on the stove and carry extra fuel in Sigg bottles.

I do not carry drinking water in bottles that can be mistaken for fuel bottles.

Also, as far as skin freezing to the bottle is concerned, if there is a lot of water in the bottle, the metal cannot be much below freezing. Just be careful about touching the metal if the contents are mostly or all ice. (The usual cautions about filling the bottle full of liquid water apply--the expansion upon freezing can burst the bottle. Ice expands ~10% over water.)

Doug

 

[sleeping bear]

The rumors or chemical leaching has had me nervous about lexan for a while. I asked what people's opinions were on metal bottles at least once before on here. The upshot of that thread was pretty much 'no' for winter.

I don't foresee any issues with mistaking my water bottles for fuel bottles. I suppose one could label the bottle as NOT FUEL.

I thought it would be a lot harder to manage metal bottles in super cold conditions. I don't normally let my Nalegene bottles freeze solid either (what a pain in the butt). I tried letting an old Sigg fuel bottle full of water freeze before I went on the trip. It started to freeze, but after 24 hours outside (temps around 20) still was not solid. I think I filled it 3/4 full. I may try that again to see if I can get it to rupture.

 

[DougPaul]

I don't foresee any issues with mistaking my water bottles for fuel bottles. I suppose one could label the bottle as NOT FUEL.

It is also a good idea to use different shape bottles--labels can be hard to read in the dark or when half-asleep.

Doug

 

[MichaelJ]

You note that you always filled them with boiling water. How long did it take before it cooled enough that you could drink out of one? Or did you have a non-sigg bottle for your "active" drinking and keep these in the pack for later?

 

[sardog1]

Small hijack of the thread for an illustrative anecdote (probably told by me previously -- forgive the repetition if that's the case):

Six of us on a multiday ski/camping tour. Dinner first night is homemade chili, frozen into a block ahead of time. Cook pours water into the pot from a handy bottle to provide steam for the thawing. As he's cooking the chili, he's heard to mutter softly, "Sumthin's not right here."

He serves up the chili. I put a spoonful in my mouth and am overwhelmed by peppermint-flavored chili. The bottle was somebody's schnapps, not water. Five of us went hungry; the sixth had two helpings. True story.

 

[Maddy]

I got both my brand new Siggs to freeze this summer. No problem.
I had filled them about 2/3 up and put them in the freezer. I got away with this for about 3 weeks and one find day, the explosion occurred. They were immediately destroyed.
They made wonderful bike bottles and the water tasted great.
It's back to the old Nalgenes for me.

 

[TomD]

I've got 3 fuel bottles-an old Sigg (maybe 1 L); and old MSR that seems to have significant corrosion on the outside which may mean it needs pitched and a newer Brunton. The Sigg looks to be in pretty good condition-just a couple of slight dings.

What causes the bottles to explode? Just too much water in them or something else inherent in the design?

 

[DougPaul]

What causes the bottles to explode? Just too much water in them or something else inherent in the design?

Pressure is generated by the expansion when water freezes. If the bottle is full before freezing, the situation is simple. But Maddy's bottle was only 2/3 full. I presume that the surface froze over and as the portion below the surface froze, it placed more pressure on the aluminum than it could bear.

A full plastic bottle will also burst or expand, but a partially full bottle can flex slightly--perhaps enough to avoid bursting.

Doug

 

[TomD]

Doug, that's what was mystified me-the bottle supposedly wasn't full. Expanding ice has an amazing amount of force. That's what sank Shackleton's ship.

I've seen Coke cans go off when frozen. We used to freeze them, then put them in a golf bag. After a few holes on a hot day, they were ready to drink, but occasionally one would explode in the freezer-what a mess.

 

[DougPaul]

Doug, that's what was mystified me-the bottle supposedly wasn't full.

I can only guess that the ice that forms first at the surface of the water can hold enough pressure that the freezing water below can develop enough pressure that it can burst the bottom of the container. Presumably something similar happens when a water pipe freezes and bursts.

Expanding ice has an amazing amount of force.

Ice also breaks rocks... (frost cracking)

That's what sank Shacketon's ship.

Ships for polar use were designed with a rounded bottom so that ice would push them up rather than crush them.

Doug

 

[sleeping bear]

I don't doubt that a metal (or lexan for that matter) bottle can or will burst when frozen solid. My main deal with all of this is that I thought it would be much more difficult to prevent the metal bottle from freezing given the higher heat conductivity of metal over plastic. I can't recall the last time I let a plastic bottle freeze during a trip either. The point of all of this being that if you can manage plastic bottles during winter, it is not any more difficult to manage metal ones.

Michael J did bring up a good point. Yes, I filled the bottles with boiling or near boiling water. When I anticipated drinking out of them soon (such as when I filled them in the morning) I would leave some cooler water in one to even out the temperature. The super hot water was rather difficult to drink from an equally hot bottle.

 

[DougPaul]

My main deal with all of this is that I thought it would be much more difficult to prevent the metal bottle from freezing given the higher heat conductivity of metal over plastic.

If you put the bottle in an appropriate insulating container (bottle parka etc), most of the insulation will come from the parka, not the bottle.

I can't recall the last time I let a plastic bottle freeze during a trip either. The point of all of this being that if you can manage plastic bottles during winter, it is not any more difficult to manage metal ones.

I suspect that many of us have had a bottle freeze at one time or another. I've certainly had mostly empty bottles freeze or some ice form in a mostly full bottle. IMO, it would be prudent to use a bottle that is less likely to be damaged if there is any risk of it freezing.

Doug

 

[sleeping bear]

If you put the bottle in an appropriate insulating container (bottle parka etc), most of the insulation will come from the parka, not the bottle.


I suspect that many of us have had a bottle freeze at one time or another. I've certainly had mostly empty bottles freeze or some ice form in a mostly full bottle. IMO, it would be prudent to use a bottle that is less likely to be damaged if there is any risk of it freezing.

Doug

Yes, and it would be better to bring a synthetic sleeping bag if there is any chance of it getting wet. Technology has made it very easy to get away with a lot. Instead of properly managing things we replace them with new (often more environmentally damaging) equipment and products that make our outdoor lives much easier. Fires are difficult to start in many conditions, they take longer to cook over and make our pans black- hence we use stoves. Convenience, and lack of responsibility dictate many of our actions in the backcountry and the selection of the equipment we take. We wear a bunch of gore-tex material that allows us to not need to be as prudent in regulating our body temerpature and clothing, our boots are waterproof so we don't need to be as cautious as to where we place our feet, and synthetic base layers give us a margin of error if we do get wet. Perhaps I am unnecessarily concerned with the effects of the chemicals in lexan bottles. Cancer causing and other harmful chemicals are all around us all time time. Is switching bottles going to change that, no. But it is one less thing. Do I still cook on teflon pans? Yep. Call me a hypocrite.

I am guessing I am not alone on this board on being able to properly manage myself and my equipment in the backcountry. That has been my theme of this thread- that with proper management metal bottles appear to be just fine in the winter. Sure there are consequences if they freeze, I see that, and I will accept responsibility if that happens to me. I also prefer down sleeping bags, even when there is a chance they might get wet. In fact, I think I may prefer using equipment that requires a higher level of responsibility, it increases the challenge of being outside.

 

[cbcbd]

In fact, I think I may prefer using equipment that requires a higher level of responsibility, it increases the challenge of being outside.

All right, next winter gathering you best come out in a cotton toga Let's see some expert temperature management in that

I kind of hear what you're saying, but I don't think this is about cutting corners or shunning responsibility, it's just about simplifying the winter experience and minimizing things that could go wrong... I could use a water bladder in the winter and make sure to blow back every time I take a sip, or to store it inside my jacket, or sprinkle magic dust... whatever the tricks are to keep it from freezing - doesn't mean it can't be done, it's just that it's just more of a pain and that's it.

I realize you're worried about the new found possible side effects of Nalgene use, and that's cool. And it's cool that you figured out that Sigg bottles aren't death bombs in the winter.
I think a good test would be to put a Sigg and Nalgene with the same liquid strapped to the outside of your pack and see the delta of frozen liquid between the two - Then you could at least get a good idea of how much more/less insulation you'd need to make them perform the same and not disrupt your winter water system. ...and it would tell you if an unattended Sigg bottle could explode in a routine winter day.

One thing we can be certain of... explosions are fun!!

 

[paul ron]

Empty soda bottles are best for winter camping. If the water does partically freeze in a soda bottle you can whack it against a tree to break up the ice inside. I doubt you'd do that with a lexan Nalgene or a Sigg bottle?

Also soda battles are plenty, replacing em is not a problem, costs nothing, plus the old one gets recycled... (leave the label on and get 5¢ for it). How much do you get back on a Sigg or Nalgene?

I think the soda bottle is lighter than your Nalgenes n Siggs as well.