Tibetan prayer flags on summits -- yay or nay?

[blacknblue]

I took a marvelous hike up Camel's Hump early this morning. Upon nearing the summit, I saw two sets of "Tibetan prayer flags." I didn't really think twice about it at first, since I've seen prayer flags on other summits--Colorado, Vermont, and elsewhere. I took in the summit views for a while, and headed down.

Descending, though, I thought how it was a rather odd trend for several reasons:
1) With all of the (often ignorant) discussion about state-religion seperation, how come prayer flags on state-owned property are allowed (at least tacitly so)? What would the ACLU do if someone put a John 3:16 banner up there? Or a copy of the Shema?
2) I didn't stop and analyze things, but I'm pretty sure one of the flags was hung in an area clearly off-limits in the Alpine Zone. Wouldn't it be smart to take it down to not encourage others to trample where they please?
3) Where does this stop? Do we really want to allow summits (and trailheads and any random place along the way) to become a canvas for someone's personal expression? I'd love to put a little shrine to Dice-K and Big Papi with a "Win Game 7" sign on Camels Hump, but a little moral reasoning seems to suggest otherwise.

I am not trying to start a political and/or religious thread, but as hikers and outdoor enthusiasts, is there not something at least a little disturbing about people putting up whatever they wish on our publicly-owned alpine summits? I realize our wilderness experience is already compromised by blazes and cairns and cut trails (and cog railways!), but it seems like we're crossing a line here. If we're not, where do we draw that line? I am tempted to write the Green Mountain Club (of which I am a member) to ask them to remove the prayer flags (and anything else that is not expressly condoned by the summit caretakers), or volunteer to do so myself.

Thoughts?

 

[Tom Rankin]

Leave no trace.

As long as they are removed at the end of the day, I see nothing wrong with an expression of free speech. But after that, they can blow away and become just so much garbage.

For the last several years, we've flown a flag on a summit for a 9/11 memorial, but we always take it with us. I do remember however, doing a hike 9/15/01 and seeing a tiny flag at a summit. I somehow felt it was appropriate at the time, but I would not want to see any permanent markers of this sort...

 

[sapblatt]

Bring 'em with you and take 'em with you
LNT!

 

[Toe Cozy]

I think you should contact the GMC and voice your concerns. I'm sure you're not alone in thinking those prayer flags don't belong there. If people want to bring flags of any sort up to the tops of mountains that's fine with me, but take them with you when you go. Leaving that stuff up there is no different than leaving other debris. I hope the summit caretakers (who I'm pretty sure are done working for the season) wouldn't allow that kind of stuff to be left behind. But, you never know.

 

[Jay H]

There were Tibetan prayer flags on Mt Abraham when a bunch of us did that back in early August. I don't recall seeing them on camel's Hump that same weekend.. maybe they migrate?

Jay

 

[MichaelJ]

I second (third?) the motion. Fine to bring 'em with you, let 'em flap while you're up there, but if you don't take them down with you then they're litter to be disposed of.

 

[Rik]

I don't see myself leaving any on a summit but I've actually enjoyed seeing the ones I've found and left them in place.

 

[dr_wu002]

What would the ACLU do if someone put a John 3:16 banner up there? Or a copy of the Shema?

I think there is a difference with the "foreign" aspect. Tibetan prayer flags don't seem very specific -- to me they're just little flags and as long as they don't overwhelm the summit and people don't freakin' leave them there, I don't have a problem. Something more specific like a banner with a cross or hebrew or muslim lyrics could be a bit much due to the polarizing nature of religion in our country. Tibetan prayer flags seem neutral -- like they're from another world or something.

That argument is fairly flimsy but it is a rather fuzzy or gray area. Just like drinking booze on the summit, I imagine that if it's not completely overwhelming, it's ok. However, leaving the flags on the summit sucks. If that were the case I'd hike 'em out and throw 'em away.

-Dr. Wu

 

[dvbl]

Hey blacknblue

First of all, interesting thread, and GREAT post. Now THAT is how to initiate a discussion on a potentially controversial subject without being an over-bearing, holier-than-thou pain in the rear. Well said.

I'll cast another vote for pack it in, pack it out. If you leave it up there, it's just graffiti.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I'm with Rik -

 

[McRat]

Hmmm... Interesting thread.

Not sure I can condone putting them up, but I've never packed any out as trash when I found them either. The sightings have been fairly rare and hardly disturbing for me.

If this were much more common, I might react differently - but it suspect the prayer flags have been flown from enough summits as to no longer be a completely unexpected experience whereas a 'Repent! The end is nigh.' banner would certainly seem out of place.

-----------
As the Zen master said to the hot dog vendor, "Make me one with everything".

 

[erugs]

I would be very tempted to take "abandoned" flags with me. I'd call it part of my Leave No Trace ethics, but I've always wanted some prayer flags, yet don't want to buy them. To people who don't appreciate their significance in a spiritual or cultural way, perhaps they are more like litter. Certainly they are not a common custom in these parts.

 

[dr_wu002]

I think this comes down to two things: taste and leave no trace. The boundary between taste and tasteless will be different for most people but there are things that are somewhat universally unacceptable to most. Leave no trace is pretty much a no brainer. Take it out when you leave.

prayer flags - disputable but as long as it's not excessive and not really in your face, probably within the realms of "tasteful."

15 miles of prayer flags on the summit - excessive; no taste.

Leaving prayer flags on summit - litter.

Then again, I guess if the State erected them you probably couldn't take them out just like you can't take out the buildings on Washington if you consider those litter as well.

-Dr. Wu

 

[dvbl]

...To people who don't appreciate their significance in a spiritual or cultural way, perhaps they are more like litter...

Not sure I've ever been insulted in such a polite way .

Even unsophisticated dopes like me can "appreciate their significance in a spiritual or cultural way." But a Tibetan prayer flag left on Camel's Hump in Vermont? Please.

 

[onestep]

Interesting topic.

Whenever I see them I'm reminded of my Mom who use to hang out the laundry to dry. It seems now a days people look down on those who still do so. It's even banned in some communities. Such a shame...

 

[dr_wu002]

Interesting topic.

Whenever I see them I'm reminded of my Mom who use to hang out the laundry to dry. It seems now a days people look down on those who still do so. It's even banned in some communities. Such a shame...

Hey, sometimes I'll take a wet shirt off or something and hang them somewhere on the summit to dry! Same thing as a prayer flag, right!? 'Cept, I wear it out!

-Dr. Wu

 

[Willoughby]

Interesting topic.

Whenever I see them I'm reminded of my Mom who use to hang out the laundry to dry.

Precisely our reaction to the string of prayer flags on Burke Mt. In Burke's case, the whole LNT argument is somewhat undercut by the fire and cell towers that loom over them.

Willoughby

P.S. A "spiritual or cultural" question - the Burke flags were all white, I would have expected something more colorful. Does anyone know what the real thing looks like and want to share?

 

[dr_wu002]

Precisely our reaction to the string of prayer flags on Burke Mt. In Burke's case, the whole LNT argument is somewhat undercut by the fire and cell towers that loom over them.

Yeah, I guess if there's like a rocket ship and a movie theater on the summit, prayer flags are somewhat inconsequential. But the original question seemed to deal with summits like Camel's Hump which don't have much besides rocks and hardy plants present. In those situations prayer flags have the potential to be much more intrusive.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I've been known to set up prayer flags on summits when someone finishes something significant. I'll also set them up in the woods while doing some kind of trailwork project. I tell the workers that the flags make the rocks feel better, since we dig them up from their resting place and move them around.

I always take them down, not because of LNT or anything like that, but because they're my son's flags. He brought them home from Nepal, and he'd kill me if I left them there.

More than one person around here has been on a summit when my flags were flying.

 

[MichaelJ]

More than one person around here has been on a summit when my flags were flying.

Indeed, I've seen you set them up and let them fly. I've even posed pics with them. Yes, many more than one of us has appreciated their presence!