Trail blazing ... OK for me but not for you

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Puck said:
RGF I have seen tagging done by surveying teams. They usually drive stakes with measurments and readings on them. I don't think that they would tie them to trees.
I have seen a forresters mark of a spot of spray paint on the trunk of tree that is to be cut. To me that is not as ugly a plastic strip.
I once tied up a strip to mark the site of a thrush site during a nesting study. Yes it was ugly and I took it down. I then landmarked from the trail and paced off the distance so I could easily find it again.
Puck I have seen both I guess it depends on the situation. Sometimes I flag a tree sometimes I spray orange paint on it I usually only spray paint if I am going to cut the tree down. . Some are just temporary untill a trail or study is done . I know i have flagged tress if I am doing a study of a area say to detremine haw many of a a type of plant is growing I do this so I can remove the flags when I am done. The Flags could also be marking points on a survey line I have seen that. . But I am sure in some places they are put there as route markers I think there were some on MT Nancy. Forestnome might know if they are still there I think he goes there alot .
The reason some one legit would flag a tree is so the marker can be removed once they are done doing what ever it is they are doing .
yes they can be ugly .
I am not advoactaing everyone go out and flag bushwacks I hope I did not sound as if i was.
 
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I cannot express my view strongly enough that you do not touch any flagging tape you come across, no matter where it is. First, you could be breaking the law. It could be part of legitimate land survey. Second, it could be being used for a long-term study for birds or other animals. In short, you could be screwing up a study that has been worked on for a long time and is finding out information that is going to be difficult to replace if you screw around with the survey points. Third, it could be being used for search lanes during a search. If it should be removed, searchers will do it. If it is still there then it is probably still needed.

On the other side of the coin. If you have no business putting flagging tape up. Then have the courtesy to remove it on the way out.

Call a FS or DEC person if you see flagging that you don't think belongs.

This strikes me as just common courtesy.

Thanks,
Keith
 
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Mark S said:
I'm not even saying that establishing one route up a trailless peak is a bad thing. I'm just pointing out what I view as a contradiction. By flagging routes - whether with the approval of the DEC or not - the 46Rs are essentially training hikers to follow blazing ... even if the flagging is eventually removed. The Club is also teaching aspirants how to do it.

I challenge you to follow our flagging on Cliff or Macomb. Our flagging takes you through some of the thickest blowdown areas that Floyd gave us. That flagging is there to mark the route which the path will eventually take. It is NOT there for hikers to follow. They would be crazy if they did.

As for the flagging that we leave marking a route? If you can provide us with a way to indicate the old path is gone, and that people should follow the new one, we will gladly use it. A re-route is the only time we flag a route, and we only flag the rerouted part of it. We did no flagging on Street/Nye, Tabletop or Marshall.

Mark S said:
I would also predict that this will not eliminate the problem of multiple herd paths in the Dacks.

It has done an extremely good job on the peaks we've worked on. We do it, not by flagging, but by clearing blowdown when it forces people to take an alternate path, and by re-vegetating the secondary path. Each peak that has been 're-habilitated' gets an adopter, who makes two trips a year, ensuring that multiple paths are not being created, and monitoring for erosion problems.

If you can tell us a better and effective way to do things, let's hear it. Our ways are not cast in stone, and if we find a better method, we'll go for it.
 
SAR EMT I am glad you posted that . I was trying ot be diplomatic about it. . You are right they could be marking a study ( maybe of a rare or endangerd plant or animal ) as I mentioned earlier. or a SAR line.
Or they could be a timber sale .I had a problem with Greenies moving them so that might timber wher i should not . The law enforcemet folks took a dim view of it and they deliberatly waited untill a friday evening to catch the culprits just so they could spend 3 nights in lock up. No court to set bail until monday opps . Yes you could be breaking the law it is illegal interfear with surveys and studioes and if it is on USFS land the feds get a crack at you that would really suck . If you see them just talk ot the appropraite authorities . be they USFS , Sate DEP Fish and game ect , or what ever they are called in the state you are in .
You could well be removing something that will benifit us hikers.
Once again if you must flag a route please remove them on your way down.
BTW SAR EMT would you like some of the deer you are welcome to them on the land I and my folks have . Oh yeah they do have deer ticks I know as I now have lyme disease and it was from a tick on our land as that is where I picked up the evil critter.
 
SAR-EMT40 said:
I cannot express my view strongly enough that you do not touch any flagging tape you come across, no matter where it is. First, you could be breaking the law. It could be part of legitimate land survey. Second, it could be being used for a long-term study for birds or other animals. In short, you could be screwing up a study that has been worked on for a long time and is finding out information that is going to be difficult to replace if you screw around with the survey points. Third, it could be being used for search lanes during a search. If it should be removed, searchers will do it. If it is still there then it is probably still needed.

On the other side of the coin. If you have no business putting flagging tape up. Then have the courtesy to remove it on the way out.

Call a FS or DEC person if you see flagging that you don't think belongs.

This strikes me as just common courtesy.

Thanks,
Keith

I agree completely! There is a reason for the tape being there, legit or not. Best to ask and inform park officals first then to tear it down on the spot for ANY or more of the various reasons stated. Call me dumb, but I would hope the person responsible for putting it there would be responsible for its removal when completed of their task!
Brian
 
RGF I have seen tagging done by surveying teams. They usually drive stakes with measurments and readings on them. I don't think that they would tie them to trees.

Surveying takes a lot of heavy equipment that needs to be carried to the plot location. A great way to cut down on weight is to use the existing vegetation to mark out the boundaries of the survey. Imagine being the person who had to lug five bundles of wooden stakes up a mountain with no trail, because you weren't allowed to flag the trees! IMO, if you didn't place the flags, and you're not the prevailing authority on the land, don't touch them.
 
Some random thoughts:

I don’t see a 46er flagging as a ‘contradiction’ when the purposes are quite different from that done by individuals. The purpose of one is to mark out a new trail sanctioned by the DEC. The other’s purpose is for an individual to find their way back.

If someone unknown to me is bushwacking ahead of me for the first time and has flagged the route, and if I remove it, and if, on returning, the person looks for their flags and can’t find them, and they get disoriented and can’t find their way back, have I practiced “stewardship?”

Is it always possible to tell the difference between legitimately sanctioned flagging and flagging done at the whim of an individual? I do recall seeing flagging that looked fresh to me, and which turned out to be the work of a private hiking party removing flagging as they approached me. How could I have known if it was the work of the 46ers or a private party?

Calkins brook flagging: is it not true that the ‘route may not have existed in the first place if someone hadn’t gone in and “flagged” it (hatchet marks in trees)?

Do the yellow paint blazes, found virtually all through the high peaks on numerous rock faces, bother anyone?

Are those who are against the 46ers' temporary flagging of trails also in favor of their work to establish new trails? If so, how would you propose that a new path be established? If you are totally against such trails, do you follow them, or do you truly “bushwack” all of the 46? If you are against the establishment of new trails, should the mazes on Nye or Tabletop (for example) have been left as is?
 
It's really quite simple. I have taken the time over the years to become familiar with the rangers covering the backcountry areas I frequent. I regularly talk to them about my travels. If he or she does not know about a flagged trail, then it is assumed to be unauthorized and it gets removed. If he or she says it's ok, then it stays.

Get to know the ranger of your area and work together to steward the wilderness.
 
I appreciate the good input here about SAR search lines, surveying, etc., but it's easy to distinguish non-legitimate marking in WMNF, and it's trash.

Whenever I follow it, it leads to some campsite or treestand. The treestands I'll leave alone, but I still remove all the trash, including tape, butts, cans, etc. If it's a campsite, I'll naturalize the site and remove the trash.

Hunters, campers and bushwackers are in need of skills improvement if they have to rely on tape, and they're littering the forest.
 
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As I understand it, Pete, the flagging on Macomb and Cliff will remain for a full year or so after the new paths are cut. True or not true?

As to the issue of better ways of cutting new paths, I guess you could count me among those who think things should have be left as is. I think that as the route-finding difficulties of the 46Rs are removed, you will see more and more looking to the Highest 100 as a way of 'proving' their woodsmanship skills. Ultimately, this will lead to the proliferation of herd paths in other parts of the Dacks.

Personally, when I did the 46, I took the established herd paths when I could find them, so call me a hypocrit if you want. However, I've also done true bushwhacking while doing the Catskill 3500 and many of the NEHH.

None of this is to take away from the effort that folks like Pete put forth in their dedication to the 46Rs.
 
Mark S said:
As I understand it, Pete, the flagging on Macomb and Cliff will remain for a full year or so after the new paths are cut. True or not true?

Not necessarily. FIrst of all, the entire thing we are talking about is about a quarter fo the herd path to the base of the slide, not the entire path. Within this, there are three sections.

The start. If we are able to close off the old path, so that the new one is the obvious route, we will not need flagging. Within the route, there are two cases. Where the trail is obvious, flagging is not necessary. The only place it may be necessary, is through open forests, where it will remain until a tred develops.


Mark S said:
As to the issue of better ways of cutting new paths, I guess you could count me among those who think things should have be left as is. I think that as the route-finding difficulties of the 46Rs are removed, you will see more and more looking to the Highest 100 as a way of 'proving' their woodsmanship skills. Ultimately, this will lead to the proliferation of herd paths in other parts of the Dacks.


It's a problem of overuse, not a path problem. The trailless peaks are/were suffering from erosion. Look at the 30-40 foot wide cliff on Cliff that was once tree covered. Look at the mess of the traditional paths in the Sewards.

There are three options:
1) Limit use (comon in the west, disliked in the east.)
2) Do nothing, and let things erode
3) establish official paths and maintain them.

The purpose of maintaining the paths is NOT to make it easier. It is to protect the mountain. Climb street & Nye after June 10, and look at some of the head-thumping blowdown that I'll leave.

Yes, the 100 highest will see this in the coming years, but again, it's an overuse problem. Oh yeah. and I'll tell you another area where this is happening. Routes to the slides. Its getting popular.


{QUOTE=Mark S]Personally, when I did the 46, I took the established herd paths when I could find them, so call me a hypocrit if you want. However, I've also done true bushwhacking while doing the Catskill 3500 and many of the NEHH. .[/QUOTE]

And I used to love staying in the lean-to at Indian Falls, and drinking water straight from the brook there. The world is different today.
 
Mark S said:
As to the issue of better ways of cutting new paths, I guess you could count me among those who think things should have be left as is. I think that as the route-finding difficulties of the 46Rs are removed, you will see more and more looking to the Highest 100 as a way of 'proving' their woodsmanship skills. Ultimately, this will lead to the proliferation of herd paths in other parts of the Dacks.

This is a different issue altogether I think. Although, I cannot see the correlation between the flagging of routes currently done by the 46ers (through the auspices of the DEC) and this issue. I think Pete (who is closer than all of us to the scene) laid to rest well enough that the problems of multiple paths on Street/Nye has been significantly reduced by directing traffic up a single well-designed path.

You can make an argument that the reason the problem even exists at all is because of 46er inaction in the past. For years, the notion of “trailless” peeks meant that people would, by and large, climb “however they hell they wanted” to the summit. Given the increased volume over the years, paths developed that were “not particularly” well developed or designed. By maintaining this false illusion of “trailess peaks” for so long, while usage went through the roof, problems with erosion along crappy paths intensified and worsened. What’s being done now with flagging and rerouting is simply a reaction to a problem that its been long overdue to address. You might be able to argue that had the illusion of “trailess peaks” been abandoned 10-15 years ago (as usage increased), there’s a possibility that better and more ecologically friendly “paths” would already be in place on the trailess peak and the problem of “official” flagging would be mute.

As for the 100 Highest. The list is out already there, and printed in the back of the ADK Guide no less, along with a caveat that it’s there in hopes that climbing some of them will “relieve pressure” on the top 46. I hear about these peaks more and more, and I even read a recent article in the Press Republican about someone that climbed all xxx peaks under xxx feet in winter. I loved it, and It was a great article about adventure and exploration, but at the same time its certain to generate interest in some of these lesser peaks for those with a certain peakbagging mentality (i.e. many of us). The word is slowly getting out. People may not be climbing all 100, but individually (peak by peak), usage is spreading. Lets face it, with technology today (and the advent of GPS) the woodcraft needed to negotiate the Sawtooths or Sentinels is NOT what it used to be and any ole idiot willing to risk some skin can do it (I include myself in there ;)). Add to that, books or websites like this one, mine, or any number of a dozen others, and it is all but inevitable that these peaks will see more hikers. That my make you sad, or forlorn, but it is, IN FACT, reality.

It would be, and is, easy to blame one or two simple factors on why this is happening, but much like currently blaming the 46er for current the “flagging infractions”, its way too simple and convenient, and probably not really accurate. We can continue to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that “trailess peaks” still exist (everyone agrees they don’t), or that the 100 highest aren’t being climbed more and more frequently, but we do so at great peril to these wild and magnificent places. The problems will even be worse for the HH peaks as there are private property concerns for quite a few. When only 1-2 "blitz" the peak a year (as has been done in the past), it wasn't a huge issue. It soon will be at this rate.

Sorry, I drifted from flagging, but……………. My position on flagging? I pretty much find it ugly as hell and hate it, and will generally remove it if I don’t think it belongs. To be truthful, I’ve come across quite a bit of it, and I’ve found that it’s pretty easy to determine if it served a legitimate purpose or not. This is how I see it, and like anything else, I could be way off base.
 
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forestnome said:
I appreciate the good input here about SAR search lines, surveying, etc., but it's easy to distinguish non-legitimate marking in WMNF, and it's trash.

Whenever I follow it, it leads to some campsite or treestand. The treestands I'll leave alone, but I still remove all the trash, including tape, butts, cans, etc. If it's a campsite, I'll naturalize the site and remove the trash.

Hunters, campers and bushwackers are in need of skills improvement if they have to rely on tape, and they're littering the forest.

Again I agree. The flagging I have seen in the whites is on a trail (AZ is just one example) that leads to a campsite that has been trodden to the point of being harder then pavement and oftentimes close enough to water to be illegal. If somebody needs to mark a trail to a site what is wrong with those small rockpiles we learned about in scouts?

Any surveying site I have seen was very obvious what it is. There are stakes, there is a also alot of brush clearing if needed. However I have never seen this where I hike, it was on private lands.

Also, animal/plant studies are usually well posted.

I did not know that SAR flags this way....is there any lettering on the tape defining what it is?
 
Puck said:
Again I agree. The flagging I have seen in the whites is on a trail (AZ is just one example) that leads to a campsite that has been trodden to the point of being harder then pavement and oftentimes close enough to water to be illegal. If somebody needs to mark a trail to a site what is wrong with those small rockpiles we learned about in scouts?

Any surveying site I have seen was very obvious what it is. There are stakes, there is a also alot of brush clearing if needed. However I have never seen this where I hike, it was on private lands.

Also, animal/plant studies are usually well posted.

I did not know that SAR flags this way....is there any lettering on the tape defining what it is?
Puck yes where it is pratical and feasible stakes are used mostly for land devlopment and road building. Some study sites are not signed. The reason for this is so thet the site is not intruded on . Lets say a UNH crew is studying the possiblity a wolf or mountain loin living in a particualr area. If they were to post Mountain Lion or Wolf habitiat study area lots of people are going to want to see the animal some groups will want to interfere with the study . They might have some agenda in not wanting either animal to be" officially" back in the NE . Rare plants might also draw people some with intentions of removing a few and then trying to grow them for what ever motive they might have. Or they might not want the rare plant or animal found so they can develop. So often study plots are not marked .
Timber sales are often flaged because of the contorversy they can provoke it is alot easier to remove a piece of plastic from a tree than paint. . People have been known to "sabotage " equipment and spike trees not a smart move as it could seriulsy injure or even kill some one. Also moving markiers around in it self is illegal. Some try to move markers to create confusion in a site even if they do not know what it is for .
I do know that if a trail is going to be relocated ( I think a lot need some ) it is possible that the relocation is marked by flaging so the pople making the trail know where to go .
If you do see marking ot a illegal site instead of removing any thing contact the FS and or other authorities. Yhat way they can catch the culprits and deal with them. By removing it all you do is cover thier tracks and make it easy for them to make more messes.
Yes Forestnome if some one needs to make markings they need to improve
thier skills.
A few years ago a aquantiace and now ex girlfriend went hiking in VT . the stated following what they thought was a trail because it had orange flagging eventaully they wondered why they had not arrived at a shelter that would have been a few miles in . so they walked out . Later they learned that they were following a survey line for part of the State Park !
Also Some people do use them for Bushwacking and do remove them If you were to go out andremove them you might well be unintentional casung some one a lot of problesm they may take a compass reading from the tree they makred and then remove it on thier way back Or it could be part of a orienteering class. Just a few more thoughts.
Sometimes it is best to not take matters into your own hands and let the proper people deal with it . I think flagging is one of them .
 
mavs00 said:
I think Pete (who is closer than all of us to the scene) laid to rest well enough that the problems of multiple paths on Street/Nye has been significantly reduced by directing traffic up a single well-designed path.

Know why there were so many paths on Street/Nye? There are two stories as to why. I'll leave the one of "The Nye Wolf" for another time.

There is a certain amount of irony here, with Mark saying that the re-conditioned trails are making it easier to climb. You see, some years back, there were some who beleived that the existance of herd paths was making it too easy to climb mountains. Their solution, was to intentionally create numerous false paths so that unskilled hikers would get lost. Now these lost hikers unintentionally created more paths in trying to get un-lost.

The DEC's reports about street/Nye being the place having the largest number of lost hikers says that those creating those false paths were successful in what they did.

But was it good? Did it have the desired effect?
 
Perhaps the easiest solution is to have tape that has the governing bodies endorsement printed right on it. (Ie. WMNF do not remove under penalty of law. like a mattress tag.) Used by foresters, biologists, surveyors, SAR or anyone else officialy given permission. Private land is a totaly different matter as no one has a right to put the flags up or take them down.
 
Puck said:
Perhaps the easiest solution is to have tape that has the governing bodies endorsement printed right on it. (Ie. WMNF do not remove under penalty of law. like a mattress tag.) Used by foresters, biologists, surveyors, SAR or anyone else officialy given permission. Private land is a totaly different matter as no one has a right to put the flags up or take them down.
Puck that is a good idea really And if Bushwackers wanted to flag maybe they could purchase the tape for a small fee .
On public land it is best to let the agency that is responsible for the land deal with something you think is questionable .
Of course on private land if you mark things that is your right. Of course placeing or removing markers on private land is a whole different matter.
 
On a recent group hike in the Catskills, one member spyed a ribbon of bright pink tape knotted around a tree. If it didn't have DEC signature on it, it would have become trail trash.

Moose
 
Puck said:
Perhaps the easiest solution is to have tape that has the governing bodies endorsement printed right on it. (Ie. WMNF do not remove under penalty of law. like a mattress tag.) Used by foresters, biologists, surveyors, SAR or anyone else officialy given permission. Private land is a totaly different matter as no one has a right to put the flags up or take them down.

An excellent idea! I wouldn't allow the sale to of it to private individuals, like bushwackers, because that would be like paying for the right to litter.

I couldn't agree more with Puck and AlpineSummit. If one needs tape to bushwack, one needs to learn how to bushwack or stay on trail.

(AlpineSummit, nice aurora image!)
 
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