Trail Runners in the shoulder seasons

[summitseeker]

Hello all,

I have had some boot issues since spring and found myself really enjoying hiking in trail runners. I should start off by saying I rarely run but have made some good times wearing TRs rather than conventional boots.

I was curious how effective (or ineffective) people have found this type of footwear in the early spring and fall.

I have used the Salomon Fellraisers, XR Mission CS, and my current favorite, the Salomon Speedcross 3 (not GTX or Climashield, I wish they were).

My plan is to continue wearing trail runners until there is enough snow or cold enough temps to warrant wearing my winter hiking boots.



Thanks in advance for any and all replies,

Z

 

[Guthook]

I stopped wearing any kind of boots two years ago when I got a pair of these for winter. For the shoulder seasons I just use my trail runners the same as if I'm hiking in relatively wet summer conditions. At some point it comes down to how uncomfortable you are in wet conditions. I'm perfectly happy with wet feet as long as I have a dry pair of socks and shoes in my car (for day hikes) or extra dry socks and maybe some plastic bags (for overnights). I've even found that my feet are warmer in trail runners than they are in boots when the weather gets really cold (not entirely sure why, but I have some ideas), despite postholing through rotten snow or cold mud.

Here's something I wrote a few years back about another method I use to keep the toes warm in wet and nasty shoulder season conditions. This worked wonderfully for me in November snow on Mt Garfield last year, and on several other occasions. You'll probably want to experiment with other solutions, but the bottom line, I think, is that you can definitely make your trail runners work just fine for more than just summer use.

 

[nartreb]

As long as the snow isn't deep enough to get crammed into the tops of your shoes, you can keep wearing your trail runners. The other worry is stream crossings - wet shoes are much less fun when it's cold out.

I've been known to go for runs in trail runners and microspikes when I can expect packed trails. Wearing spikes over soft shoes isn't especially comfortable, but the weight savings and ankle freedom compared to boots allow for a faster pace.

 

[dug]

My brother climbed Jackson one February wearing trail runners. Trail was so broken out, it was like walking up a sidewalk.

 

[TCD]

I use trail runners in the shoulder season, until it's time to switch to winter boots. A goretex or otherwise waterproof trail runner works best for this. In the summer, wet feet (lets say from splashing through a shallow brook) don't matter, but they can be a problem at 45F. The goretex greatly reduces water entry. The other two things that extend the trail runner season are chemical toe heaters (which don't work well when wet, another point for goretex), and scree gaiters which, in addition to scree, keep out snow, and delay the entry of water. Just yesterday I splashed through a brook that was a few inches deep. It would have been well over the tops of my shoes. But with gtx shoes, scree gaiters, and moving fairly fast, my feet stayed dry.

 

[summitseeker]

Thank you all for your replies,

Like Guthook, and some others, I am finding that Gore-Tex trail runners in combination with high gaiters will probably take me well into this shoulder season. Once the snow is deep enough for snowshoes I will again wear my winter boots. Salomon has made two water resistant versions of the Speedcross 3. One with Gore Tex, hard to find these days, and the other with their version of Climashield.

I don't mind wearing microspikes over trail runners, but I assume that my K 10 crampons will not feel as good under the relatively soft soles.

Thanks all,

Z

 

[peakbagger]

I have done hikes to Tuckermans in the early spring with trail runners and crampons. I think I have also gone up the Lions Head winter route with that combination. I have used them in the past in snow with neoprene socks but generally its in late winter/early spring where there is snow on the ground but warm conditions

 

[summitseeker]

I have done hikes to Tuckermans in the early spring with trail runners and crampons. I think I have also gone up the Lions Head winter route with that combination. I have used them in the past in snow with neoprene socks but generally its in late winter/early spring where there is snow on the ground but warm conditions

Thank you for your post, peakbagger.

I am curious how the "leaf spring" system will do with my trail runners. This is a combination I will test out on some smaller peaks first .
Guthook's website had some interesting vapor block alternative suggestions. Besides neoprene have you found any other substitutes to traditional merino wool socks?

Thanks,

Z

 

[DougPaul]

Besides neoprene have you found any other substitutes to traditional merino wool socks?

You can use a double vapor barrier with wool socks--an inner one to keep sweat out of the socks and an outer one to keep outside water/snow out of the socks. (This is essentially an improvised K-boot.)

Until you are confident in the system (and maybe even after you are comfortable with it...) it might be worth carrying some booties as backup.

Note that on multiday trips, one should wear dry breathable socks at night to minimize the risk of trench foot.

Doug

 

[Guthook]

You can use a double vapor barrier with wool socks--an inner one to keep sweat out of the socks and an outer one to keep outside water/snow out of the socks. (This is essentially an improvised K-boot.)

Double-bagging it sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea

My first attempt with the turkey-bag vapor barrier was on a 10-degree day on Monadnock, so getting wet feet was not a concern (I did have gaiters to keep snow from jamming into the sneaker tops), but another recent one was Mt Garfield last November, with very wet conditions at the bottom and dry, frozen conditions up top. I dunked one foot in a stream at the very bottom of the trail (accidentally-- even I'm not crazy enough to do that on purpose for testing!) so I was able to feel the difference between the wet sneaker and the dry one all the way to the top. Both were perfectly warm for the whole hike.

One thing to keep in mind is that the extra real estate in your sneakers taken up by the bag and sock sandwich means you want to be extra careful about cutting off circulation, which would make your feet colder. Having sneakers that aren't too big, but are spacious enough to fit very comfortably over the system, is very important.

And I have also tried neoprene socks, but never really liked them as much as wool-- neoprene doesn't stretch as well as a good wool sock (which has some Lycra in it), so getting a good fit that doesn't squeeze my feet a little too tight is harder to do.

 

[DougPaul]

My first attempt with the turkey-bag vapor barrier was on a 10-degree day on Monadnock, so getting wet feet was not a concern (I did have gaiters to keep snow from jamming into the sneaker tops), but another recent one was Mt Garfield last November, with very wet conditions at the bottom and dry, frozen conditions up top. I dunked one foot in a stream at the very bottom of the trail (accidentally-- even I'm not crazy enough to do that on purpose for testing!) so I was able to feel the difference between the wet sneaker and the dry one all the way to the top. Both were perfectly warm for the whole hike.

Wet insulation is wet insulation no matter where the water comes from... I dunked a leather XC boot once, but fortunately only a small amount of water got past my gaiter.

One advantage of a vapor barrier inside your insulation is that your body heat tends to dry out the insulation rather than deposit moisture into it.

One thing to keep in mind is that the extra real estate in your sneakers taken up by the bag and sock sandwich means you want to be extra careful about cutting off circulation, which would make your feet colder. Having sneakers that aren't too big, but are spacious enough to fit very comfortably over the system, is very important.

Allowing enough space for good circulation is important in any boot used in cold weather.

And I have also tried neoprene socks, but never really liked them as much as wool-- neoprene doesn't stretch as well as a good wool sock (which has some Lycra in it), so getting a good fit that doesn't squeeze my feet a little too tight is harder to do.

I've worn neoprene socks for white water boating. Wool adapts to your foot, neoprene doesn't. Somehow, I didn't find the neoprene socks to be very comfortable... Neoprene can also expand at altitude which can complicate the fit.

Doug

 

[bobandgeri]

We trail run the snowmobile paths and go snowshoeing wearing the La Sportiva Crossover GTX which has a built in gator. On cold days we wear a pair of "rbh designs" vapor barrier socks instead of smart wool socks. Also use them wet/muddy trails anytime of year. We have gone on 4K hikes with them when we know we can keep moving on packed trails.

 

[summitseeker]

Hi DougPaul and Guthook,

Thank you for your input. I appreciate the technical info regarding the neoprene socks as well as real life experiences.

I am feeling confident that my next pair of Salomon Speedcross 3s (either with Climashield or Gore Tex) will keep the water out. Of course if I should dunk my feet and the water makes it beyond the gaiters that is a different story. My hope is that with the winter version of the Darn Tough socks I have, compression stocking (which I normally wear anyways), and high gaiters my feet will remain dry and pretty warm.

My concern, however, is that the "rand" (area of toe protection) is pretty minimal. I jammed my big toe while sliding over a snow covered rock on Adams and almost lost the nail while wearing a pair of Merrell boots. The Speedcross has almost no real protection in front of the toe box area, but they fit my feet (wide forefoot, narrow heal) very well.

Any other suggestions from the community?

Thanks,

Z

 

[summitseeker]

We trail run the snowmobile paths and go snowshoeing wearing the La Sportiva Crossover GTX which has a built in gator. On cold days we wear a pair of "rbh designs" vapor barrier socks instead of smart wool socks. Also use them wet/muddy trails anytime of year. We have gone on 4K hikes with them when we know we can keep moving on packed trails.

Thanks Bob and Geri

 

[Guthook]

My concern, however, is that the "rand" (area of toe protection) is pretty minimal. I jammed my big toe while sliding over a snow covered rock on Adams and almost lost the nail while wearing a pair of Merrell boots. The Speedcross has almost no real protection in front of the toe box area, but they fit my feet (wide forefoot, narrow heal) very well.

Huh... I guess I've never run into (har har) that problem, or at least not that badly. I've had toe damage from wearing trail runners that didn't fit quite right, which is why I mentioned it's very important to have a great fit, but I haven't had anything worse than temporary ouchies from stubbing toes. Are you sure the sneakers have the best fit? I find that all of my trail runners have about a full inch of free space between my big toe and the front of the toe box, and enough space at the pinky toe to let me spread it out-- when there's less, I know it pretty quickly and painfully.

I've always found Salomon trail runners to be way too narrow for my feet, which translates to crushed toes. New Balance and Montrail and Vasque have been my best options for lots of toe space. Then again, everyone's feet are shaped differently, so it all depends. I've cycled through more than a dozen models of sneakers in the past few years to find what works best for me, and often the best ones are discontinued after a year or two so I have to start over again (dang New Balance...).

 

[summitseeker]

Huh... I guess I've never run into (har har) that problem, or at least not that badly. I've had toe damage from wearing trail runners that didn't fit quite right, which is why I mentioned it's very important to have a great fit, but I haven't had anything worse than temporary ouchies from stubbing toes. Are you sure the sneakers have the best fit? I find that all of my trail runners have about a full inch of free space between my big toe and the front of the toe box, and enough space at the pinky toe to let me spread it out-- when there's less, I know it pretty quickly and painfully.

I've always found Salomon trail runners to be way too narrow for my feet, which translates to crushed toes. New Balance and Montrail and Vasque have been my best options for lots of toe space. Then again, everyone's feet are shaped differently, so it all depends. I've cycled through more than a dozen models of sneakers in the past few years to find what works best for me, and often the best ones are discontinued after a year or two so I have to start over again (dang New Balance...).

Hello Again, Guthook.

My feet are an odd mix of wide forefoot, narrow heels, and low volume in some areas. I tried Superfeet (green) in combination with a lot of different shoes and boots only to findnd that they were aggravating my arches. The deep heel cup caused some serious blisters on a Zealand-Bond Traverse as well. I have to say that the Salomon Speedcross 3s fit me like a glove. They are a bit narrow for my wide feet but I have not experienced any toe crunching as of yet.

The black and blue toe nails were the result of a pair of Merrell Outland Mids (discontinued), which are not trail runners but have a very soft material in the rand. I find that a snug fit eliminates my greatest foot issue, which is heel lift causing blisters. That is why I am opting for a less roomy fit in my boots and trail runners.

Thanks again for your replies and suggestions,

Z

 

[alexmtn]

Going for a less roomy fit will often aggravate a heel blister problem, not because of lift, but rather because of the heel being forced against the heel counter. No matter how hard you try, you're not going to be able to prevent *some* lift -- and as it occurs, you don't want your heel to be against the counter under pressure. The most common way this happens is when a hiker fully tightens his/her top laces during an ascent portion of a hike. Picture a side view of your leg and foot in the boot. On ascent, your leg angles forward in the boot in order to keep you upright on the incline. If your top laces are tight, the forward angling of your shin levers your heel into the back of the boot, under the full force of your weight. In scarcely more than a few steps, your heels will start to feel it -- and after a long stretch, bad news. So the first thing to attend to always with boots of any upper stiffness at all (Outlands qualify fully) is to tighten/knot the laces at the boot's middle, roughly where you'd tie them if the boot was a simple low-cut shoe (if locking lace hooks are present in the right spot, you can use those), and very loosely laced above that. Then, before a sustained descent, tighten the upper portion of your laces in order to help hold your feet back in the boot to avoid toe jamming.

So on the one hand, the above levering issue can be aggravated with a snug fit. On the other hand though, underfoot blistering is more likely when there is too much room -- so balance between the two is key, a la 3 bears.

Alex

 

[summitseeker]

Going for a less roomy fit will often aggravate a heel blister problem, not because of lift, but rather because of the heel being forced against the heel counter. No matter how hard you try, you're not going to be able to prevent *some* lift -- and as it occurs, you don't want your heel to be against the counter under pressure. The most common way this happens is when a hiker fully tightens his/her top laces during an ascent portion of a hike. Picture a side view of your leg and foot in the boot. On ascent, your leg angles forward in the boot in order to keep you upright on the incline. If your top laces are tight, the forward angling of your shin levers your heel into the back of the boot, under the full force of your weight. In scarcely more than a few steps, your heels will start to feel it -- and after a long stretch, bad news. So the first thing to attend to always with boots of any upper stiffness at all (Outlands qualify fully) is to tighten/knot the laces at the boot's middle, roughly where you'd tie them if the boot was a simple low-cut shoe (if locking lace hooks are present in the right spot, you can use those), and very loosely laced above that. Then, before a sustained descent, tighten the upper portion of your laces in order to help hold your feet back in the boot to avoid toe jamming.

So on the one hand, the above levering issue can be aggravated with a snug fit. On the other hand though, underfoot blistering is more likely when there is too much room -- so balance between the two is key, a la 3 bears.

Alex

Hi Alex,

Thank you for the technical breakdown and lacing advice. The "Foot Guru" I used to see at EMS had me try several lacing configurations before opting for a "power bar" in the lower-mid section to avoid over tightening near the toe box (wide feet) and then a heel lock lacing configuration. In retrospect this "heel lock" often did cause some blisters and the tightness above my ankle caused pain followed by numbness and shooting sensations.

For now I am very happy with the quick lace system on the Speedcross 3s and I actually removed that system from my XR Missions CS and opted for traditional laces. The pressure points and loose areas caused by the different shoes and boots I have tried have keep me trying different tensions and lacing configurations. For now, this shoe is working well for me. The Fellraisers I had before that had a heel that was at 90 degrees and I found myself constantly slipping upward. Both the XR Mission and Speedcross 3s have a heel that is pitched slightly forward that works great for my odd and very narrow heel.

Thank you again for your suggestions,

Z