Unprepared Hikers On Washington-Union Leader Article

[griffin]

I go back and forth on charging people for SAR (and if so, when).

But whacking them with a nice fee to haul them down the auto-road, that I have fewer qualms about.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I suspect that the new standard - the "reasonable person" test - will make it easier to prove negligence when a person hikes right past the sign(s) about "the worst weather...turn back now" and up into obviously darkening afternoon summer skies.

An enterprising person could possibly make some money selling rain slickers to folks. Heck, maybe the MWO could support itself selling them and maybe fleeces while they are at it.

Tim

 

[Fisher Cat]

I thought this quote from the Coos County Democrat coincided with the thread topic. I have to quote it since their on-line site is pay only.
Page A9, July 23, 2008 issue- "Tourists spend time, but less money" by Jeff Woodburn-

" A review of area tourism-related businesses and industry leaders indicate that visitors are staying longer and choosing more inexpensive recreation such as camping, tenting, and hiking. They also note that the weak US dollar has resulted in an increase of Canadian and European travelers."

So I theorize that the part about choosing less inexpensive recreation (hiking) may, at least this year-perhaps the future?!- may lead to a higher count of people needing help getting down, or heading up with less prep than usual. Any thoughts? (I'm not interested in bashing the many instances of unpreparedness we've all witnessed).

 

[griffin]

Certainly possible. One of the reasons we always went on either car-camping vacations or to my uncle's farm as a kid was that it was cheaper.

 

[Neil]

Charging people for rescues is bad for business IMO. It's probably not a deterrent for getting into trouble either so probably all it would do is decrease tourist money influx to the region. Some might see that as a good thing, others as a bad thing.

I hike a lot and even though I'm experienced it's likely that I stand a better chance of requiring a rescue than a person who hikes once every 2 or 3 years on a very busy peak. Given a choice I would rather not have to pay for it.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Given a choice I would rather not have to pay for it.

I doubt anybody would rather pay for it, given the choice. If the rescuee is not the one paying for it, then everyone else is, or the service ceases to exist. It's no different than a broad-base tax versus use fees.

Tim

 

[Neil]

If the rescuee is not the one paying for it, then everyone else is, or the service ceases to exist. It's no different than a broad-base tax versus use fees.

Tim

Considering that I'm an out of country visitor, then I wouldn't be paying for "it". (Unless we get into the finer points of economics.)

But if word began to get around that you might get stuck for a 60-70 K bill if "bad luck" caught up with you then some people would probably take their tourist dollars elsewhere.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

But if word began to get around that you might get stuck for a 60-70 K bill if "bad luck" caught up with you then some people would probably take their tourist dollars elsewhere.

That very well may be. To get stuck with a bill, you still have to be proven "negligent" (a lesser standard) whereas you used to have to be proven "reckless" (which almost nobody ever was.) It remains to be seen if rescue fees will become commonplace or not.

If a tourist on Mt. Washington can't comprehend the warning signs and is ill-prepared, they probably aren't aware of the rescue fees either. They drove all the way there, they aren't about to turn around because of a sign (herein lies part of the problem, of course.)

The flip side might well be that people still come, still spend, but are more well prepared. Maybe some Canadians will take advantage of the favorable exchange rate and purchase those items in New Hampshire

Tim

 

[Quietman]

But whacking them with a nice fee to haul them down the auto-road, that I have fewer qualms about.

I agree with that!

I'm just brainstorming so no laughing please

In the winter, lots of sports stores have daily updates for conditions at numerous ski areas that are faxed to them. Why can't daily or 2 day high elevation condition forecasts be placed at the many trailheads that are serviced by the AMC shuttle? They could include worst case low temp and precip forecasts with all the usual legal disclamers, and could also include a recommended "start by" time for various abilities. The shuttle drivers could replace them daily during the busy summer season.

These would be aimed at the casual tourist hikers who might not realize what they are getting into. Not a cure all, but it might prevent a few bad situations and/or rescues. Just a thought.....

 

[Mad Townie]

They could include worst case low temp and precip forecasts with all the usual legal disclamers, and could also include a recommended "start by" time for various abilities.

Quietman, posting conditions sounds like a really good idea (assuming the shuttle drivers and whoever supplies the reports wouldn't mind ). Seems to me, though, that the people who get in trouble are often the very people who don't know how to assess accurately their own ability levels. That certainly is the case with a lot of Mt. Washington tourist-hikers.

The people who DON'T chuckle at the Presidential "Many have died" signs are the very people who are best prepared and least likely to be caught off guard by conditions.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

GPS, etc.

"While I don't have the data to back it up, I think that people have come to rely on technology, cellphones especially, but perhaps at times gizmos like GPSs, to bail them out instead of their wit, grit, and ingenuity."
TEO

I've got to agree with this theory. I see people asking for GPS coordinates on the MWO Forum all the time. Last winter there was a couple who did a traverse with no prior knowledge of the trails. They were caught in fog and whiteout and only made it through with their GPS and dumb luck. As it was they were often off the trail and up to their chests in the snow. Luckily they were otherwise prepared enough and physically able to make it through this. When they were finished they beat there chests and showed their pictures and basically said, "Look what we did!" All I could do was roll my eyes. Of course the reaction from the mostly no-hiking crowd on the MWO Forum was,"Wow! That is so cool!" I was sick. Only dumb luck got them through alive.

"An enterprising person could possibly make some money selling rain slickers to folks. Heck, maybe the MWO could support itself selling them and maybe fleeces while they are at it." BikeHikeSkiFish

The State Park and the MWO must be very enterprising, because they can't keep enough emergency rain ponchos in stock! They even sell them in the Tip-Top House! Fleeces in all three Gift Shops, too!

KDT

 

[DougPaul]

"While I don't have the data to back it up, I think that people have come to rely on technology, cellphones especially, but perhaps at times gizmos like GPSs, to bail them out instead of their wit, grit, and ingenuity."
TEO

Many people got into trouble in the mountains before cellphones and GPSes. The technology may help them get into trouble, but it sure isn't necessary.

Doug

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Agreed

"Many people got into trouble in the mountains before cellphones and GPSes."
DP

No doubt about that, I just think that many more venture in thinking that if they get into trouble their gadgets will get them out, and that certainly isn't always true.

KDT

 

[skiguy]

"While I don't have the data to back it up, I think that people have come to rely on technology, cellphones especially, but perhaps at times gizmos like GPSs, to bail them out instead of their wit, grit, and ingenuity."
TEO

I've got to agree with this theory. I see people asking for GPS coordinates on the MWO Forum all the time. Last winter there was a couple who did a traverse with no prior knowledge of the trails. They were caught in fog and whiteout and only made it through with their GPS and dumb luck. As it was they were often off the trail and up to their chests in the snow. Luckily they were otherwise prepared enough and physically able to make it through this. When they were finished they beat there chests and showed their pictures and basically said, "Look what we did!" All I could do was roll my eyes. Of course the reaction from the mostly no-hiking crowd on the MWO Forum was,"Wow! That is so cool!" I was sick. Only dumb luck got them through alive.

"An enterprising person could possibly make some money selling rain slickers to folks. Heck, maybe the MWO could support itself selling them and maybe fleeces while they are at it." BikeHikeSkiFish

The State Park and the MWO must be very enterprising, because they can't keep enough emergency rain ponchos in stock! They even sell them in the Tip-Top House! Fleeces in all three Gift Shops, too!

KDT

While I don't have any info to back it up and you certainly don't have to agree...but my theory is if ponchos and fleece were not sold at the summit people would not rely on being bailed out by these sources and think twice about about being more self reliant. I think they sell ponchos and fleece at many of the same stores as GPS's.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I think there is far too much credit given here. By definition, posters here are in some way affiliated with hiking, and far and away better understand the risks. How many VFTT members have been injured, lost, or worse? That's a heck of a lot of hiking, in some pretty extreme conditions.

In contrast, the people getting rescued or needing assistance probably don't plan on it, and aren't experienced, and maybe aren't even hikers. It's all about bragging rights. Fueled by the "This car climbed Mount Washington" stickers... It's a challenge to climb it on foot. They feel invincible and aren't interested in learning about the risks. I'd wager that half or more don't know there is even a gift shop at the top. **I didn't know** and I'd climbed it. I guess I remember people breaking in last year or the year before in an emergency...

Tim

 

[Maddy]

I think there is far too much credit given here. By definition, posters here are in some way affiliated with hiking, and far and away better understand the risks. How many VFTT members have been injured, lost, or worse? That's a heck of a lot of hiking, in some pretty extreme conditions.

In contrast, the people getting rescued or needing assistance probably don't plan on it, and aren't experienced, and maybe aren't even hikers. It's all about bragging rights. Fueled by the "This car climbed Mount Washington" stickers... It's a challenge to climb it on foot. They feel invincible and aren't interested in learning about the risks. I'd wager that half or more don't know there is even a gift shop at the top. **I didn't know** and I'd climbed it. I guess I remember people breaking in last year or the year before in an emergency...

Tim

Very insightful post!
I have a Tshirt that I bought years ago that says:
THIS BODY CLIMBED MOUNT WASHINGTON!
“Take long walks in stormy weather or through deep snows in the fields and woods, if you would keep your spirits up. Deal with brute nature. Be cold and hungry and weary.” - H. D. Thoreau
....CLIMB THE ROCKPILE!

 

[smitty77]

I've never hidden my employment at the MWAR from this forum, some of you know who I am by name and face, and for those who don't know, yet, I'm the female blue-rinse generation at the Toll House who does have to deliver bad news to folks that the road is closed to traffic and they CANNOT go up to fetch their hikers. It is not fun, it happens more often than anyone thinks ( 4 days out of the last 10) and it is because of that dreaded Ass U Me..... folks think there is ALWAYS a bail option with four wheels and an enclosed cab with heater or AC for the downbound leg.

Did you work July 5th? If so, I think it was you who handed me my info packet and bumper sticker. Thank you. I was behind the Jeep with the very big and very loud Saint Bernard in the back.

Back on topic: I wrote about this on another forum, and the biggest problem I have is the unprepared parents who put their children in danger. And I'm not talking just hiking unprepared, but going too far for too long such that your little one becomes hypothermic. That sickens me. I think these folks should be criminally charged with child endangerment.

And I believe every word about the bailout situation at the auto road. A co-worker had to so the same thing a few years ago with his group of 12. They knew the climb was hard, but couldn't really comprehend how hard until they reached the top of Tucks and saw "all that still left to climb". I told him they should have bailed down Lions Head at that point. On our drive up on July 5, I saw lots of people still approaching the summit at 4pm, some with little kids. I just shook my head, kept my mouth shut, and loaded my wee-little-ones into the truck for the trip down.

 

[smitty77]

An enterprising person could possibly make some money selling rain slickers to folks. Heck, maybe the MWO could support itself selling them and maybe fleeces while they are at it.

Don't worry, they do already. Wander through the gift shop and you'll find an array of fleece goods in many sizes and colors. I think a few waterproof accessories can also be found to put over those fleece items.

I'm no sucker, I waited to get my MWO sweatshirt that the weather discovery center in No. Conway.

Hey, I always had a soft spot for rime covered dump trucks.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Fine line

"While I don't have any info to back it up and you certainly don't have to agree...but my theory is if ponchos and fleece were not sold at the summit people would not rely on being bailed out by these sources and think twice about being more self reliant. I think they sell ponchos and fleece at many of the same stores as GPS's." Skiguy

I think it becomes a fine line between negligence and letting people be self reliant. It's a catch-22. We build the trails and invite people to climb the mountain. Are they all going to be prepared and capable? No! What can we do to lessen the impact of those who come unprepared? Well, there's a gift shop on the summit, let's at least make sure we have rain ponchos and fleece so at least some of the unprepared hikers can make it back down without rescue.

I bet most of the fleece is sold to people who drove or took the train up in their t-shirts and flip-flops.

There are no easy answers to this, Like DP says, we can't reduce the number of unprepared hikers to zero.

So, we have to do what we can to help without squashing anybody's freedom to be stupid.

KDT

 

[Breeze]

Fine Lines, indeed

Kevin, there are many fine lines, and I agree with the sentiment.

"There are no easy answers to this, Like DP says, we can't reduce the number of unprepared hikers to zero.

So, we have to do what we can to help without squashing anybody's freedom to be stupid."


A MW hiker who PLANS to do a one way up hike and roll the dice on whether the road will be available/open, the summit stages/Cog RR will be running with seats for sale/available, and/or family or friends will be able to get to the top for that RIDE DOWN, is NOT PLANNING to be RESCUED, that person is just planning on doing a one way hike because it is SEEN as a viable option.

It is a judgment call whether that sort of "planning" is stupidity, ignorance, arrogance, " limiting risk" or "making the best use of all possible resources".

When it all works out to everyone's satisfaction, there is no problem. Money changes hands, hiker is down safe, stories are told and its all good. Happens all the time and it has become simply way too easy.

When it doesn't work out as planned is when the cr#p hits the fan.

I hadn't looked very closely myself at the eye-catching Subie with the Seek the Peak mural paint job running out of the MWO Discovery Center in N. Conway. Its OBS staff and I wave at them, chit chat with the folks if I have a minute, don't give the paint job any notice.

One of the NH State Parks folks gave me the heads up yesterday to watch for the car and look closely at the triumphant-looking Seek the Peak climber in the mural.

I looked closely today. Fun seeing some staff I haven't seen for a while, but I took a close look at the marketing/advertising/paint job.

Bare toes peeking out of some non-descript sandal footware, bare arms raised to the sky, shorts and a tee shirt in between. No pack, no hydration, no gear at all.

Hmmmm. Subaru and LL Bean as partners in marketing with ... MWO


fine lines, indeed.


Breeze