Upticks in Infections in Mass and RI

[JoshandBaron]

Well, it would be nice if we could actually trust "medical professionals" to give us the correct info, but that is not always the case. For decades the government has been telling us to eat "right" and gave us the food pyramid. And...Americans just got fatter and fatter, diabetic, etc. Now, emerging evidence has shown that not only is the food pyramid wrong, it is basically upside down. Turns out that fat doesn't make most people fat...it's carbs (mainly refined carbs). And this was known a hundred years ago, but somehow forgotten in the 1970s or so. And, they still haven't changed it, although some organizations have started to recognize this and changed their guidance.

Anyway, the WSJ had a great article a week or so about masks, and which ones work, and which don't. It's good reading.

They updated the food pyramid in 2005 and replaced it entirely in 2011. I expect it will change again.

I read that mask study. Will be interested to see if trail habits change or if people continue to wear the neck gaiters.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Well, it would be nice if we could actually trust "medical professionals" to give us the correct info, but that is not always the case. For decades the government has been telling us to eat "right" and gave us the food pyramid. And...Americans just got fatter and fatter, diabetic, etc. Now, emerging evidence has shown that not only is the food pyramid wrong, it is basically upside down. Turns out that fat doesn't make most people fat...it's carbs (mainly refined carbs). And this was known a hundred years ago, but somehow forgotten in the 1970s or so. And, they still haven't changed it, although some organizations have started to recognize this and changed their guidance.

Anyway, the WSJ had a great article a week or so ago about masks, and which ones work, and which don't. It's good reading.

I agree that conflicting and changing advice is frustrating.

I view this as the scientific method being played out at an accelerated pace for the general public to see; as opposed to be limited journal articles, peer review, and conferences. Science is a process and methodology for seeking an objective reality and is self-correcting over time.

These changes in COVID-19 recommendations to the general public are part of that self-correction.

Our southern States just conducted an uncontrolled experiment in easing restrictions, the early consensus is that that experiment led to an increase in the spread of the virus among that population. But we do not really know...

 

[Mike P.]

I hope everyone going for surgery makes sure the doctors and nurses in the surgical suite do not wear masks when they operate on you. I was fortunate enough not to notice if June 21st this year had more hikers who rebelled against the insanity of hiking while wearing clothes. Initially the medical professionals were more concerned that Ebay hoarders would buy all the PPE that doctors would need and they would not have any. They certainly need N95's more than I do. I prefer not socializing with anyone outside of my normal contacts. I preferred it when I was called antisocial and not socially distancing.

It will be some time before I go on a cruise, a plane, eat in a restaurant or pay 6.00 for a pint of beer, or go to a movie.

 

[Hillwalker]

Since about 1990 I have flown to Europe to hike and backpack on the cheap staying in hostels and taking public transport. Early on I discovered that picking up a URI on a plane was far too easy. After two disasterly ruined long distant hikes I would always wear a surgical mask flying to EU. I felt a little self conscious, but since my face was covered, I just grinned and bore it. Nowadays, to me, everything about mask wearing feels normal to me. I lost my wife in 2002, left New Hampshire, and have lived like a hermit in a cabin in the woods of rural Maine ever since. I only leave the cabin for food or fuel and only see about one of two people a week. I guess I am close to being a hermit, but after teaching Middle School for twenty six years (as a second career) I value my peace and solitude. The social constraints we are under happen to fit my lifestyle quite well.

 

[Hachi]

I recently had the unfortunate duty of traveling to Florida as my dad passed away unexpectedly. (He was almost 90 and basically died in his sleep after a good full life. ) But I was the only one with the bandwidth to make the trip to support my mum, as I can work remotely, and have no health issues. I flew Delta, which came highly recommended by my colleagues who have had to travel during this time. They are the most highly rated for safety and I had a pretty empty flight from BOS to ATL, and again from BOS to Melbourne FL. I did not see one person without a mask, and the information provided on air filtration and sanitizing of the planes was reassuring.

It was very difficult to get anything done, you had to have an appointment to enter a bank. Again, masks were required. I was there 10 days. Drive through testing was available at no charge. The day before I left, I went to the nearby state university. I only waited for one car ahead of me. The testing was not painful. I flew the next day, this time from Orlando. I was nervous about the tram, but again, very few people and social distancing was quite easy. Got into Boston and on the way out of the baggage claim, I completly changed my clothes and donned a fresh mask. My son picked me up and drove me to his home in Saugus, I sat in the back seat for the 10 minute drive with the windows open and we visited at his home outside for a few hours until Mike could come and get me. We wore masks and kept the windows open. I slept in the spare room.

I got my negative results from the testing this morning, but I am not sure he will let me back in the bedroom yet! He has a respiratory condition so it is important to me to keep him safe. I am erring on the side of caution everywhere I go, although I feel that I have limited my exposure as best I possibly can. I find it slightly inconvenient, but completly doable. I will continue to behave this way as long as I need to. The negative result keeps me from the requirement of quarantine for 14 days, according to MA guidelines, but I will be pretty much isolated anyway. Just my 2 cents, but my experiences have all been pretty positive. Everyone seems to be doing the best they can.

 

[TCD]

We had a similar experience in Florida. Late June - early July, to help with care taking for our 90 yr old mother after some health issues (who is now recovering; amazingly tough!).

Testing was easy, results in 2 days (negative, thankfully). We drove, which is easier in some ways, but certainly you are exposed to people in more locations and over a longer period of time.

But overall, things in Florida were in good shape - good compliance with masks and distancing, even back in June, and easy quick test results.

Back up here in the Adirondacks, with map and compass in hand, we are remarkably isolated from the real world, with no crowds, virtually "private" hiking, climbing and swimming, and almost no virus cases. It's hard to relate to the "real world" and I am sympathetic towards those stuck in population centers.

So I agree, everyone seems to be doing the best they can.

 

[Remix]

Finishing up a kayak trip on the west side of Mount Desert Island.....

..After 4 days , I only saw 10-12 cars from Maine's hot states...two of those were senior citizens driving Florida cars. The rest were Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and District of Columbia...traffic is the usual crazy but somehow the hotels are far from full. I stayed at two that claimed 24 hours between occupancy...the maids dont come in but leave towels and coffee at the door if you request it.

I could not resist a drive through Bar Harbor...it was a complete zoo. But everyone was wearing mask.

I cant recall anyone not wearing a mask in any retail business...on the docks, landings, and beaches few people wore masks.

 

[Mike P.]

Today I did see a couple in the store today, she had it just over her mouth, the man had it on his chin. A younger guy with his face in his T-shirt and a man in camo shorts and a matching camo neck fleece gaiter which as we have recently learned, is actually worst then not wearing one.

 

[David Metsky]

A younger guy with his face in his T-shirt and a man in camo shorts and a matching camo neck fleece gaiter which as we have recently learned, is actually worst then not wearing one.

To help clear up some misunderstanding, the headlines about neck gaiters are incredibly misleading. The study they're quoting really isn't a study, it was a proposal on testing methodology with often single tests with one individual on the various face coverings. It was never intended to study the effectiveness of those face coverings. At best you can say there's no information pro or con on neck gaiters as effective face coverings.

 

[peakbagger]

I have various half mask respirators at home left over from working in industry that are far more effective than n95 masks but all that I possess have bypasses for exhalation (N99 or P99) equivalent). Given that masks are intended to prevent transmission of potentially infected droplets and aerosols from myself to another person in my vicinity, my gear is probably worse for protecting others as it bypasses exhalation directly to the air. Its pretty simple to visualize how a mask works, spray a garden hose at a target, now insert a cloth blanket between the hose and target and see how wet the target gets. Now replace that blanket with 1/2" mesh hardware cloth. The target will now get wet again. The finer the weave and the number of layers is what interrupts the droplet transmission and to a lesser extent the aerosols. Note there are electrostatic treatments that also can factor in but expect standard masks are not designed for that capability. I do carry my N99 mask in my car. On the unlikely situation I have to enter an emergency situation with unknown folks like a car accident I will probably opt for the half mask to maximize my personal protection given my very low risk of being a asymptomatic carrier. If I was stuck in plane or bus I might opt for the half mask.

I will note that a standard N99 equivalent HEPA filter does require lung capacity, I had to have routine pulmonary function tests (PFT) to be certified to use them. Smokers rarely would pass. I usually ranked way up on the curve as I was hiking frequently. The runners in my department would usually score lower as the PFT is volumetric test and apparently runners do not need to breathe as deeply. The doctor that was in charge of our testing speculated that the PFT does not measure how effectively the oxygen is transferred across the lung only how effectively oxygen could be drawn into the lung cavity. This can predict what happens when the air flow is interrupted by a fine filter. Working with a non pressurized N99 mask does get noticeable after several hours, the term "sucking wind" applies. Powered belt respirators were developed to compensate for the pressure loss through the filter and also incidentally allowed many smokers to get certified for their use which opens up the labor pool. The belt units I have seen also include exhalation valves in the masks.

 

[Mike P.]

Since Polyester wicks moisture, it's likely not so much the style but the material. Keeping you warm,wicking moisture, however in this case you want the moisture from warm breath, not wicked away.

 

[maineguy]

To help clear up some misunderstanding, the headlines about neck gaiters are incredibly misleading. The study they're quoting really isn't a study, it was a proposal on testing methodology with often single tests with one individual on the various face coverings. It was never intended to study the effectiveness of those face coverings. At best you can say there's no information pro or con on neck gaiters as effective face coverings.

Well, the study mentioned in the WAPO references this study published in a peer reviewed journal. I just skimmed it, but it looks to me like they did actual testing, as well as laying out methodology for additional testing.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083

 

[griffin]

Well, the study mentioned in the WAPO references this study published in a peer reviewed journal. I just skimmed it, but it looks to me like they did actual testing, as well as laying out methodology for additional testing.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083

Right, that's the one David Metsky was referring to - they did run tests, but their purpose was to demonstrate a testing method, and not provide definitive evidence of which masks/materials work: "The work we report here describes a measurement method that can be used to improve evaluation in order to guide mask selection and purchase decisions."

FWIW, there's video of them using their set-up. They were taking the measurements of the expelled droplets just few inches away from the speaker's face, which doesn't strike me as applicable to most real-world situations. The only people who are going to get that close to my face are my wife and the dentist who fixed my busted tooth during an emergency visit.

 

[Remix]

I have various half mask respirators at home left over from working in industry that are far more effective than n95 masks but all that I possess have bypasses for exhalation (N99 or P99) equivalent).

Put a regular tissue mask over the respirator nose purge valve. That's what I do when I have to go to work...I wear my 3M P95 mask.

 

[JustJoe]

To help clear up some misunderstanding, the headlines about neck gaiters are incredibly misleading. The study they're quoting really isn't a study, it was a proposal on testing methodology with often single tests with one individual on the various face coverings. It was never intended to study the effectiveness of those face coverings. At best you can say there's no information pro or con on neck gaiters as effective face coverings.

I thought neck gaiters were be fine until I saw this. And the 2 different gaiters I have, (I have N95's I wear to doctors and double layered cloth for stores) but my neck gaiters did fail that candle test. I tried that test with the 3 non-gaiter type masks I have. Could not blow out the candle. I don't know how scientific that is, but it convinced me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9xCDo1TaZE

 

[skiguy]

Not singling anyone in particular out but who is one to believe? There is advice from everywhere including hiking boards and other various sources. https://youtu.be/x6cTDGqcUpA

 

[ChrisB]

Not singling anyone in particular out but who is one to believe? There is advice from everywhere including hiking boards and other various sources. https://youtu.be/x6cTDGqcUpA

Just read that Maine has traced 50 Covid cases to that wedding in Millinocket at the Big Moose Inn.

I wonder if any Baxter Park staff attended. Hope not.

 

[peakbagger]

Its not the first outbreak in the Milllinocket area. Very early on there was a outbreak in Medway. There were several cases tied to a salesman that had traveled through Maine.

 

[dave.m]

Not singling anyone in particular out but who is one to believe?

This is the quintessential post-modern question.

The question might be posed as, how do create, fund and operate truth producing institutions that can be trusted by the public.

When institutions are funded by the rich (e.g. corporations, share holders), there are good reasons to suspect that the message is biased towards the interests of the rich.

Public financing of truth producing institutions have the promise of producing truth for the benefit of the people using public funds, but when this is done through the mechanism of the state, there are reasons to suspect that the message is biased towards the interest of that state for the state's sake. If the state isn't democratic, then the state's interest is not the same as the people's interests.

The only reasonable path I see is to use public funding to fund quasi-independent truth producing institutions. The NSF and CDC are steps in the right direction provided the state can keep their hands off of them. Ditto the British and Canadian commitment to publicly funded independent press (the US PBS and NPR are largely financed by big money now).

Still... I think there is something deep in the human brain that biases large numbers of people to respond to fear by becoming more authoritarian in their world view. This authoritarianism can take many forms. I have an uncle with a PhD in Chemistry from Princeton and he's spend many hours (including a very uncomfortable 4 hour drive to Vermont) trying to convince me that the Earth is 6,500 years old - this based on the authority of his scriptures and the added ages of the people going back to Adam. Growing up in the church, I've been up close and personal with science denial my entire life and in all of the discussions and arguments I've been involved in or have seen, I've never once seen a science denier change their minds.

On the other hand, I've seen many, many different hair-brained wacky ideas and conspiracy theories sweep through churches and political associations like wild fire. I still recall the conversation with a life long friend several years ago who tried to convince me about "pizza-gate".

Masks and COVID-19 are a pillow fight compared to the coming epoch of climate disaster. When we're having serious discussions in public about who to believe, it's an indication that our culture is failing the test. I no longer hold any realistic hope for our species. Collectively, our brains aren't wired to make good collective risk decisions. Fear wins.

 

[maineguy]

This is the quintessential post-modern question.

The question might be posed as, how do create, fund and operate truth producing institutions that can be trusted by the public.

When institutions are funded by the rich (e.g. corporations, share holders), there are good reasons to suspect that the message is biased towards the interests of the rich.

Public financing of truth producing institutions have the promise of producing truth for the benefit of the people using public funds, but when this is done through the mechanism of the state, there are reasons to suspect that the message is biased towards the interest of that state for the state's sake. If the state isn't democratic, then the state's interest is not the same as the people's interests.

The only reasonable path I see is to use public funding to fund quasi-independent truth producing institutions. The NSF and CDC are steps in the right direction provided the state can keep their hands off of them. Ditto the British and Canadian commitment to publicly funded independent press (the US PBS and NPR are largely financed by big money now).

Still... I think there is something deep in the human brain that biases large numbers of people to respond to fear by becoming more authoritarian in their world view. This authoritarianism can take many forms. I have an uncle with a PhD in Chemistry from Princeton and he's spend many hours (including a very uncomfortable 4 hour drive to Vermont) trying to convince me that the Earth is 6,500 years old - this based on the authority of his scriptures and the added ages of the people going back to Adam. Growing up in the church, I've been up close and personal with science denial my entire life and in all of the discussions and arguments I've been involved in or have seen, I've never once seen a science denier change their minds.

On the other hand, I've seen many, many different hair-brained wacky ideas and conspiracy theories sweep through churches and political associations like wild fire. I still recall the conversation with a life long friend several years ago who tried to convince me about "pizza-gate".

Masks and COVID-19 are a pillow fight compared to the coming epoch of climate disaster. When we're having serious discussions in public about who to believe, it's an indication that our culture is failing the test. I no longer hold any realistic hope for our species. Collectively, our brains aren't wired to make good collective risk decisions. Fear wins.

I thought the whole point of "post-modern" thought was that there was no such thing as "truth"

And, if your uncle has a Phd in chemistry, he certainly knows about radioisotope dating, so I doubt he really believes the earth is 6500 years old.

And, I used to have a friend at work who tried to convince me of Russia gate, so it goes both ways