VFTT (and Owl's Head) make the local news

[MichaelJ]

Are they drawing the line at just removing the cairn? Do we know that we're not going to find the lower part of the trail all brushed over? The summit clearing uncleared? The few cairns and blazes on the slide removed?

What's the difference between the ADK wilderness areas and the Whites wilderness areas? While I haven't done many high peaks out there, 3 of them have all been unofficial trails and yet their summits were all marked with official tags.

 

[David Metsky]

Are they drawing the line at just removing the cairn? Do we know that we're not going to find the lower part of the trail all brushed over? The summit clearing uncleared? The few cairns and blazes on the slide removed?

Nope, they had no problems with the herd path, no attempt to block the access to the slide. Were there blazes on the slide? If so, I'm strongly against those.

What's the difference between the ADK wilderness areas and the Whites wilderness areas? While I haven't done many high peaks out there, 3 of them have all been unofficial trails and yet their summits were all marked with official tags.

As far as I know, the Daks are all state park, and state regs, nothing federal. The Federal Wilderness designation comes with all sorts of rules and regs. However there are policies that allow exceptions, perhaps a cairn or sign at the summit would make sense in the long run.

-dave-

 

[marty]

I was up on Owl's Head on Saturday. There were bright blue blazes on trees along the Owl's Head Path.

 

[RoySwkr]

Source?

Edited in original, see above

Any idea the year of that picture? Was it during the time when the forest was in the early stages of recovering from logging operations?

~1970, so the logging was well over and the trees have grown some but I would say that photo was not taken from near the present sign

Please stop posting nasty comments on individuals who are volunteers to the community.

If you volunteer to do something, you should either do it or step aside and let someone else do it. [in my opinion, of course]

At one time the 4K chairman did all the work of arranging meetings, mailing info and certificates, leading trips to Boundary/Whitecap, maintaining a remote section of Davis Path in the name of the 4K Club, etc. The other members did relatively little, it was an honor like winning the Nobel Prize. Now it appears that no one person is willing to do it all, so any other members should either help out or resign. [in my opinion, of course]

Do you actually agree with the attitude of "someone else should do it" expressed in the article? If so, why shouldn't that someone else be on the 4K Committee instead of the writer?

 

[RoySwkr]

There's no need to make this an official trail, and it would be pretty hard to get it through the FS paperwork anyways.

I think you could get it grandfathered, it is as well maintained as many trails in the Whites

As to "need", consider that under the proposed regulations the maximum suggested off-trail group size in Wilderness is 4. If the FS enforced this rule on outfitter/guides or the AMC bigwigs decided to comply, this would in effect eliminate group trips to Owls Head. Consider the effect of people being forced to find an obscure turnoff by actually using a map instead of just following the leader, and the 4K would become much harder when already there are a lot of reports here on Owls Head pushing people's limits.

I'm sure that Wilderness purists would say that is just what Wilderness is for, but I think a lot of people see it as just preservation from logging and won't be happy to see trails and bridges disappear.

 

[Eric Savage]

Not just on the slide

I was up on Owl's Head on Saturday. There were bright blue blazes on trees along the Owl's Head Path.

There are also scattered blazes above the slide up to the ridge but they aren't nearly as bright as the ones on the slide.

 

[Puma concolor]

But if you think in terms of a percentage of the elevation criteria, this would be equivalent to a 700-foot col requirement for the 14ers (what is the col requirement for the 14ers?).

300-foot col requirement for Colorado 14ers. But it's not fair to measure elevation versus elevation. Prominence versus prominence is a better way to look at it. Many 14er trailheads lie close to 11k, so on that level they aren't all that different from our Northeast hills.

As I'm sure you know, the Adirondack 46Rs also have a 300-foot col requirement. I have always believed that when the NH 4K list was born in the 50s, the founders of this list had it specifically in mind to come up with a list of mountains close in number to their NY counterparts. The only way to do this was by dropping the col requirement to 200 feet ... which of course gave them an exact match.

If it makes you feel better, the Colorado 14ers also battle with these col issues. El Diente and North Maroon both have sub-300 foot cols but are on the list.

[crypic message to E.S. - Go Big Red]

 

[Mike P.]

It does sound like the beginning of the Slide herd path is being brushed over.

While I'm okay with not having cairns isn't hiding it just going to create many more herd-paths a problem that the ADK 46'ers are now addressing?

How do the trail markers & signs for Franconia Brook, Lincoln Brook & Bondcliff trail get by, those trails are in the Wilderness area also & there marked.

Sounds like the ranger has too much time on his hands which seems odd since their budget is so slashed

 

[David Metsky]

It does sound like the beginning of the Slide herd path is being brushed over.

Where did you get that impression? I haven't seen anything to say that they are blocking access to the herd path.

How do the trail markers & signs for Franconia Brook, Lincoln Brook & Bondcliff trail get by, those trails are in the Wilderness area also & there marked.

Those are all officially maintained trails. The Owl's Head slide is not.

Sounds like the ranger has too much time on his hands which seems odd since their budget is so slashed

Based on conversations with rangers, this sounds like part of the Wilderness Area management that is part of the management plan for the WMNF. I don't see this as inconsistant with regular patrols.

-dave-

 

[Variocana]

blockinng access to herd path

"Where did you get that impression? I haven't seen anything to say that they are blocking access to the herd path."

See Below trip report posted on NH Trails Conditions:



Trail: Owl's Head via Lincoln Brook Trail to Owl's Head Path

Date Hiked: 8/27/2005

Conditions: Trailhead obscured - cairn removed - blazes removed

Special Required Equipment: good map is essential

Comments: It seems that the forest service does not approve of the unofficial Owls Head Path. Not only was the cairn removed, but I believe the trailhead was intentionally obscured by logs. You can easily get around the logs, but it is difficult to find the trail. The force was with me when I arrived there - a couple was taking a break near the trail, and they told me they were pretty sure the trail was right around there. Within 2 minutes we found it and we were off. The trail is pretty clear once you find it. Although the slide might seem to go off in different directions, it all seems to come together at the top so you can't go too far wrong. Once I passed the slide, there was a park ranger working hard at carving the blazes off the trees. Isn't it nice to see our tax dollars at work! After passing him, I found the remaining blue blazes quite reassuring as I hiked through the blow-down area. The trail is still obvious, even without the blazes, but you can still clearly see the carved off blazes on the trees if you look for them. The clearing at the top had a little mini-cairn there, but no sign. While descending the slide I spoke to other groups of hikers who had to add some mileage to their hike looking for the trailhead. When I got back to the trailhead I moved some logs and made a little pile of stones at the bottom for the next groups of hikers. I'm sure our busy ranger eventually took care of that on his way out.

The trailhead is .4 miles from the last stream crossing - about a 15 minute walk. You get to a somewhat open area with lots of tall pines up on the right with plenty of pine needles below. There is a moss-covered rock slide about 20 feet or so beyond the trailhead. Walk up through the tall pines on your right and you should eventually find the trail. I'm told that if you go too far on Lincoln Brook Trail, it becomes narrow and resembles a deer path.

Submitted by: Ruth Carson

 

[dr_wu002]

"Where did you get that impression? I haven't seen anything to say that they are blocking access to the herd path."

See Below trip report posted on NH Trails Conditions:



Trail: Owl's Head via Lincoln Brook Trail to Owl's Head Path

I'm sorry to disagree with you however, Wilderness Regulations are Wilderness Regulations... they're not there necessarily to make life easier specifically for the 4000'er Committee. If Owl's Head was 3987' instead of 4004' (or whatever it is) nobody would be complaining.

Personally, I think that hiking Owl's Head should be more than notching another peak on your belt. If it requires a little bit of "off trail" knowledge or "route finding" then so be it.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Mike P.]

Based on the trail conditions report, isn't throwing brush over something you don't want people to use, maintaining the pile since I suspect the ranger will have to keep putting limbs over the beginning of the herd path, isn't he maintaining his wall? (He can't put a sign up saying, don't remove the limbs, he'd be breaking the law, breaking the law)

Were the other trails in place before the wilderness designation? How is maintaining an existing trail (debris clearing, painting trees) different legally than not maintaining a structure which we know they can't do? Did he see people build the cairn, maybe it's just an usually rock formation like that rock (who's name escapes me) off of the Sunset Ridge trail on Mansfield.

My concern really is not whether it's that much harder to find for me, while not a hard core bushwhacker like posterboy I'm pretty good with route finding when their is a slide & old path involved, others with less route finding skill (read luck in finding their way) will get lost or create many additional herdpaths.

If it was below 4,000 feet it would not be as big a deal in NH. Anyone have numbers on NH 48 vs. NE 100 finishers (Not all register although far fewer non-list hikers are doing OH than Lafayette - the number would be a good base) As long as it is over 4,000 feet & the other 47 are not that difficult to get to, people will hike up Owl's Head. If you are going to drive around to whatever trail is open for Cabot, hike Galehead, Waumbek, South Carter, Passaconaway or any of the other either viewless or out of the way 4k's unless they come up with a 47/48 patch people are not going to stop.

In NY They continue to hike Cliff, Blake Nye & Couchsachraga & they were determined not to be 4,000 feet, people go because a couple of brothers (& many others) thought they were over 4,000 feet. One of the brothers became famous in the environmental movement so we copy them, elevation, smellavation.

(Lucky for you guys my brother & I did not become famous artist or there would even be more graffitti from people copying us)

Heck I love driving, I love hiking, Jay Peak has views & is a NE 100 & I haven't been The idea of driving way up in ME to Cupsuptic Snow, Kennebago & White Cap has kept me from going, if they were over 4,000 I'd have already been. I'll keep knocking off the last 23 ADK peaks though. (I do have all four of the pretenders left too.)

 

[David Metsky]

Mike,

Check the thread on the West Bond cairn removal. There are links to the Wilderness management plans and trail maintainance plans for the Whites and the FS in general that have a lot more detail in mindnumbing legalese.

In short, there are approved trails and structures and non-approved. All the existing trails were in place when the Wilderness was created (in the 1970's I believe). Owls Head wasn't official then and remains unofficial now. In general, trails and structures are less rigidly maintained and kept smaller and less intrusive in the Wilderness Area. Unapproved structures are usually removed or grandfathered and removed when appropriate repairs are needed.

If they were blocking off the herd trail I could understand it if they though the terrain around the base of the trail was being abused. If true, I would hope they were just closing off some of the many approaches to the base of the slide and trying to herd everyone to a single path. I definately missed that trip report, but I was suspicious because a friend who just hiked to Owl's Head with a ranger didn't mention blocking off the base of the herd path.

Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily supporting the FS actions, I'm just trying to explain them.

-dave-

 

[dr_wu002]

Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily supporting the FS actions, I'm just trying to explain them.

-dave-

I second this. Although I feel that it is their business in the end, but we all have a right to voice our opinions. Personally, I like the signs and the cairns. If they're not there, I'm just as happy with that because the mountain remains and that's what's important to me!

-Dr. Wu

 

[Eric Savage]

My concern really is not whether it's that much harder to find for me, while not a hard core bushwhacker like posterboy I'm pretty good with route finding when their is a slide & old path involved, others with less route finding skill (read luck in finding their way) will get lost or create many additional herdpaths.

The general opinion of the Four Thousand Footer Committee is that the 4000-footer lists ought to be doable without necessitating off-trail navigation skills (which ought to be reserved to the NE100 list), which is why there is some effort being made to keep up the Redington herd path. Hopefully some compromise can be worked out with Wilderness policies and those who are charged with enforcing them.

Anyone have numbers on NH 48 vs. NE 100 finishers (Not all register although far fewer non-list hikers are doing OH than Lafayette - the number would be a good base)

As of April 2005, NH48: 7969; NE100: 604. The numbers are available on our website http://www.amc4000footer.org/finishers.htm

 

[Warren]

The general opinion of the Four Thousand Footer Committee is that the 4000-footer lists ought to be doable without necessitating off-trail navigation skills (which ought to be reserved to the NE100 list), which is why there is some effort being made to keep up the Redington herd path. Hopefully some compromise can be worked out with Wilderness policies and those who are charged with enforcing them.

If someone is to hike all the NH 4000 footers, shouldn't they have some degree of navigation skills? While I havent been caught in a whiteout I've heard enough stories of them and I've certainly seen weather tank pretty quickly. Discriminating between on trail off trail navigation is kind of artifical, navigation is navigation and is a useful even needed skill on or off trail.

And really, in this day and age of the web, the forest service should informing us of what they are doing or not.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Hey Cantdog is that you?

The numbers are available on our website http://www.amc4000footer.org/finishers.htm

There is only 1 2005 finisher of the NE100 right now!

Is that you CantDog ?

 

[BobV]

True Summit!

Just my luck.

I just climbed (July 11) Owl's Head (for the third time as part of my NH 4ks for a third time), and now you're telling me I've really never climbed it at all ;-)

Oh well, I guess I'll have to go back again... someday.

(But only once more, I'm not climbing it three more times to make up for the three 'false' summits.

 

[MichaelJ]

There is only 1 2005 finisher of the NE100 right now!
Is that you CantDog ?

That number is not correct. There are at least 3, as the day after Cantdog finished on Fort, Bob & Geri finished on Baxter Peak, Katahdin.