Want to do a Presi traverse in Aug - but not in one day.

[Spiffae]

Hi! First of all this is my first post on VFTT and I'm pretty excited to be a new member. Ever since meeting my fiancee (she is an ex guide from California) we've been trying to find good hikes/treks on the east coast (we live in NYC) with mixed success. We really enjoy Breakneck Ridge and the other hikes in the hudson valley, and have done some good treks in the High Peaks region of the Adirondacks that have been good.

I recently learned about the Presidential Traverse - and I want to do it! We're planning on doing it with some friends, and a combination of knee issues and lack of experience on the part of some of our members means we can't do it in one day. Now the obvious answer is the huts, but those are all booked solid for all the weekends we have.

I have two questions:

1. Is there a feasible route for 2-3 days that stops at campgrounds below the treeline? Everything I've read is along the lines of "well it's a huge descent and good luck finding a piece of flat dry ground without trees" - we had that experience in the high peaks and had a very late night where we had to navigate in darkness to a shelter that was FAR off our planned route because the hope that we would be able to find a campsite was in vain. I'm trying to avoid that. I'm looking for concrete sort of Day 1 - here to here via this route, Day 2 - here to here via this route, etc.

2. If there isn't, can you guys suggest a similar 2-3 day route in the whites? If we don't traverse in our first time out there, that's ok. We're just looking to summit some peaks, see some sights, and spend time with friends in the outdoors. Any and all suggestions welcome, though I think it would be great to have a day where we pick up the traverse trail and stop by one of the huts.

Thanks so much for having me as a member! I look forward to the fun we'll have!

 

[TJsName]

1.) Depending on your budget, you can look into staying at one of the AMC Huts. Madison Spring, Lakes of the Clouds, and Mizpah are along the route. They are a bit pricy though. You could stay at tent platforms on the northern (Valley way/The Perch) and southern (Naumen) ends of the hike for far less dough, but those are typically first come/first served (where as the huts take reservations). Also, you'd have to carry more food and a tent if you skip the huts.

2.) There are a ton of possible routes you can take for a 3 day/2 night adventure. The 'Pemi Loop' is up there in terms of popularity (for good reason), with less exposure, but still very fine views. There are many tent sites and huts along the route as well. I would suggest getting a copy of the AMC 29th Edition White Mountain Guide. The trail descriptions and maps are immensely valuable as a basic planning tool.

 

[Driver8]

Welcome to Views from the Top, Spiffae.

One possible solution for you, depending on your speed and conditioning, is to break your Presi Traverse in two, staying overnight in the basement of the Lakes Hut (it's called the Dungeon). It costs less. If you're there on the weekend, though, two problems - first come, first served, and August is peak thru-hiker traffic time, so they will be putting thrus in the Dungeon, too. It does cost less, though.

You could also, depending on the size of your party, hope to get rooms at Lakes where those reserving them don't show up. Hard to bank on that, though. Or you could do a couple of loops, breaking your traverse in two and staying overnight somewhere else - hike Highland Center to Washington, coming down via Jewell Trail and riding back to Highland in second spotted car, then go up Jewell day 2, taking in the Northern Presis and descending to a second spotted car at Appalachia.

 

[Spiffae]

Thanks for the replies! You guys live up to your reputation. I ordered the AMC book, and even though it will probably answer my questions, I have a couple more.

With these first-come first-served locations, what do you do if they are full? How much added mileage are we talking about? I'm imagining arriving somewhere in the late afternoon and being told that the next site that might have something is hours away. The AMC huts are a little too expensive, and we are planning on carrying tents/food with us. I don't want any plans that are dependent on speed/pace - this seems like a beautiful trek, and I want our group to be able to stop and enjoy it if they want.

In my mind the ideal hike is 3 days in the ~7 mile range, and I don't mind (would actually prefer) sleeping outdoors in a tent. I just don't want to have a 7 mile day turn into a 15 mile day while we scramble around the whites looking for a suitable place to camp because everything is full. Besides that I'm open to anything.

Any other suggestions appreciated.

 

[peakbagger]

The option of heading down every night to the valleys with a backpack on isnt a good one as 90% of the effort is getting up on the ridge. The majority of the ridge line is above treeline so there is no camping. If you are willing to hike about 1 mile and drop 1000 feet of elevation there are some legal but not neccesarilly desirable options to camp, basically sort of flat spots in the woods with no water or outhouses. Using a RMC facility one night and possibly the Jewell trail "bootleg" site (not shown on any map) is a possible option. The Dungeon at Lake of the Clouds is in great demand by thru hikers and is generally described by most as equivalent to sleeping in an outhouse. A general warning is if you are going north to South, never go left on a side trail off the ridgeline, in general the terrain is quite steep and rocky unsitable for tenting unless you go a long ways down. The Ammonnusuc trail is a no camping area its entire length.

If you are unaccustomed to hiking in the whites hauling a full pack and gear adds considerable stress to folks in borderline condition. Carrying day pack usually lets folks do longer days with less stress.

There is a lot to be said for dayhiking, if the forecast is bad you can take a day off and visit some local waterfalls or brook trails. If you have two cars its works well. Check this out on your maps

Spot a car at Appalachia in Randolph, drive up Jefferson Notch Road, there are a couple of designated primitive campsites along the stretch from the north which starts off the valley road near the Jefferson Randolph Line. Day hike up Caps Ridge trail and head east to Madison via Adams. Hike down any number of trails. If the day is getting long you can head down to Crag Camp and skip Madison and still end up at Appalachia, otherwise the Airline is nice walk down to RT2. Next Day Spot a car at Amonusuc Ravine or Eisenhower, then head back up Jefferson, but skip the summit, hike south over Mt Clay and then up Washington, From there hike down Crawford Path and then down Either Ammonusuc Ravine trail or the Edmonds Path down Eisenhower. Day three spot a car at Edmonds path and then hike up Crawfords path and then down Edmonds path. There are USFS campgrounds on the Zealand road which is nearby.

Realistically most folks new to whites are going to have a tough time stringing together three days of hiking and getting three days of good hiking weather sometimes is a challenge. Breaking it into day hikes gives you the option of skipping a day.

Other options for camping is Moose Brook State Park or Dolley Copp (USFS), if the group is large enough Barnes Field at Dolley Copp works well. One caveat is that few public campgrounds offer showers. Most folks head to AMC pinkham notch facility which has pay showers> there are plenty of swimming holes but they arent well publicized and will be quite refreshing even in mid to late summer.

 

[wisher]

Staying at one of the RMC camps near Jefferson is a good alternative to the AMC huts, and at $13 / night quite affordable. If you do go that route though they're self-service, and exact change is much appreciated.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Is the Dungeon a permissible destination? In other words, can the crew at the Lakes Hut assign that space to hikers?

I always regarded the Dungeon as a refuge only, and to be used only in emergencies, not overflow from the hut above. But, I could be wrong.

Personally - the thought of sleeping urine-soaked ground, where thousands have "gone" before and the lingering scent remains, is not my idea of a good time. I can think of one or two other ways I'd introduce my fiancee (and friends) to NH's Whites...

 

[weatherman]

Um, yeah, what Kevin said exactly. I tried to do something along the lines of your plan when my wife and I were dating long ago, and we wound up spending a fairly uncomfortable night in the Dry River area east off the ridge after having waited out a long thunderstorm near Lakes of the Crowds. We are still married 20 years later.
Presis are better (in summer) as a series of dayhikes, I think. For tent camping, the Perch up north and Nauman farther south are the most reliable, with a long way in between. Huts in summer are not my idea of a great wilderness experience, especially the longer I live in CO.
How about a Pemi loop instead for backpacking? Tons of friendlier camping options, more water available, generally a good time.
Or try the Baldfaces for a less crowded experience. Or north of Rt 2 (though a car spot is better if you have 2 cars), or western Maine (same issue with car spot).

 

[dug]

I once rested for a few hours on a rock ledge between Mt. Adams and Mt. Jefferson on a dry summer evening. I assure you, I was not camping.

 

[dave.m]

Hi! First of all this is my first post on VFTT and I'm pretty excited to be a new member. Ever since meeting my fiancee (she is an ex guide from California) we've been trying to find good hikes/treks on the east coast (we live in NYC) with mixed success. We really enjoy Breakneck Ridge and the other hikes in the hudson valley, and have done some good treks in the High Peaks region of the Adirondacks that have been good.

I recently learned about the Presidential Traverse - and I want to do it! We're planning on doing it with some friends, and a combination of knee issues and lack of experience on the part of some of our members means we can't do it in one day. Now the obvious answer is the huts, but those are all booked solid for all the weekends we have.

California!! I miss hiking there.

I lived in CA for a couple of years when I used to work for the Navy. Met some great and very, very tough guys in armed services there and became fast friends with several of them. Hiked around Yosemite, Death Valley, the Big Sur area and climbed Mt. Whitney via the Moutaineer's Route. Just great stuff.

After I moved back to Boston, 2 of the guys rotated through the Naval War College and so they called up, asking about hiking and climbing. I totally sand bagged them, of course. "It's only 6200' tall and only about 5 miles to the summit." These are tiny numbers based on California type hiking.

As I'm sure the experiences in the Daks has been showing you both, viable camping spots are hard in the low open hard woods, nearly impossible to find in the boreal and not at all possible (or legal) to find above tree line. So, you're right to be concerned about where to camp.

But more importantly, I think it's hard to emphasize how rugged the trails are above treeline and how bad the weather traps are in the Presidentials. Rock hopping all day can bring strong hikers to a big slow down (both my Navy buds were shocked by this). And if weather hits (usually from the west or north west), it's practically impossible to retreat to the north or west (easier access to roads) and retreat to the east or south drops you into big ravines far from roads (Great Gulf and Dry River, particularly).

One of the real beauties about the Presidentials is that there is SO MUCH to explore and see. IMO, going for a full traverse on the first trip there is sort of like chugging a great IPA (or bottle of wine). Better to sip and enjoy. Come back for many trips. The mountains are worth it.

For first trips up here, I would suggest a several night trip (mid week) to the RMC huts. Spend one day exploring Jefferson and Edmun's Col. Spend another day on Adams and Madision (Star Lake and the Hut). Hike out on the Airline.

Another non-AMC hut trip would be to spend a few nights at the shelters at Hermit Lake at the base of Tuckermans. Spend a day going up to the summit via Tuckerman and Lion Head. Spend another day exploring Boot Spur and maybe hitting Monroe and stopping by Lake of the Clouds.

Most importantly, build some experience moving through the broad cols and ridge areas above treeline, getting a feeling for following cairn lines and how it feels up there when (not if, but when) the weather hits the fan.

The tricky bit of the traverse, imo, is between Adams and Washington, especially between Jefferson and Washington. Retreat options are pretty sketchy. On a nice day, it's very doable but on a tough day, it's tough. Tougher for people with bad knees and low experience.

Please don't read this wrong. Not trying to be all doom and gloom. More trying to focus on how great these mountains are. Definitely worth multiple trips.

Let me put it this way... I can go to my grave happily knowing I'll never hike in Big Sur again. The Ventanas just didn't move me. But, I will hike in the Whites every year my legs will carry me. Never get tired of it.

Sip and savor.

 

[sdways01]

I will also agree with others pointing out how difficult the terrain can be on a presi traverse. I had the good luck of being able plan my traverse last year so that I hiked Thur-Sat avoiding crowded huts. At that point, I had hiked almost all of the 48 and I was still surprised how long you could spend on the trail when bagging the peaks for how little distance you might cover. With staying at the huts, on day two I never came close to a tree and the only time I wasn't standing on top of rocks was at the observatory. It's lots of stepping from stone to stone and even without hiking down to a campsite it could be hard for people with bad knees. I think you can certainly do it, but some shorter trips before hand might be good to see how well everyone does when only walking just on rocks. Still having good knees, I can't fully say how hard this might be.

I loved doing the traverse and fully plan on doing it again in the other direction, but it isn't easy, and I had great weather all 3 days. Exploring more parts of single mountains can certainly be just as rewarding up there in that area. And speaking as someone who did this as their first multi-day trek, come the third day I was looking forward to getting back to my truck and driving home to my own bed. Even though I thoroughly enjoyed each day.

 

[hikerbrian]

Welcome to VFTT, Spiffae. I think I can give you some relevant advice, as I attempted pretty much your exact desired itinerary 3 years ago when my father-in-law and a friend of his asked me if, well, I wanted to go with them on a 3-day trip across the Presis without sleeping at the huts. I posed exactly your question here on VFFT (too lazy to search for it right now), weighed the responses and went for it. Here is what I planned and how it turned out.

First, I knew my father-in-law was not as strong as me. He was a fit 72, but he was still 72. Therefore, I planned MANY contingencies. The best itinerary I could come up with was to go north to south and make it to Sphinx Col on day one (between Jefferson and Clay) and drop east off the ridge to a somewhat flat looking (on the map) area to camp. Day 2 we'd try to make it over Eisenhower, where, again, it looked like there may be places to camp. Day 3 we'd hoof it out via Pierce. How it actually turned out: as we approached Madison hut, I could feel the group getting tired and moving more slowly. We dropped our packs to bag Madison, and I KNEW that was going to be it for the day. After an epic search, it became obvious that the only place we might actually be able to set up our tents was in a marginal-at-best area very nearly within sight of the hut - we did this shortly after sunset, for (I think) obvious reasons. I do not recommend doing this, on any level. It was not one of my prouder moments. There really are no reasonable places near Madison hut except valley way tentsite. On day 2, we started out strong, making it over Adams and Jefferson in good form. But as we slogged up Washington, I could again feel the group getting tired. At the top of Washington, with it getting rather late in the day, I went through my contingencies and determined that the only viable route was to head down Tuckerman ravine trail to the Hermit Lake Shelter. There is no way we would have made it across Monroe and Eisenhower, and having been there MANY times, there are few if any good spots to pitch. Bailing was the right call.

In the summer, the presi-traverse as a backpack really isn't that awesome. It's not impossible, but it's really just not a great route. That's just my opinion of course. I fully agree with the other posters - break it up into a few day trips, or do the whole traverse as a single day trip (need a strong group for this). Or (best option) do the Pemi-loop as a 3-4-day backpack instead - see below. If you're bent on going anyway, be willing to slog way down off the ridge to find marginal spots - if you're lucky. To most people, this is depressing. The other option is to stay at Valley Way tentsite on night one, then hoof it all the way to Nauman on day two. With a full 2-night pack, this itinerary may actually be harder than doing the whole traverse as a day hike. Understand that the footing really sucks for most of the traverse. And there's a very good possibility that you will not have any views for the entire traverse as you'll be socked in the clouds.

If it were me, I'd do a pemi-loop. The views from Flume, Liberty, Lincoln, Lafayette, Garfield, the Twins, and the Bonds are absolutely SPECTACULAR. One possibility: In via Lincoln Woods trail, up Osseo trail to flume, then across to Liberty Ridge tentsite. Lovely place to spend the night. Day 2, over Liberty, Lincoln, Lafayette and on to Garfield Ridge tentsite. Another LOVELY place to camp. Day 3, head down to 13 Falls - it's a short hike, and you can spend the day exploring swimming holes that you can actually dive in to. Day 4, head out. This is a VERY laid back itinerary. Just look at a map, there are endless variations for making this longer and harder and fewer days and more ridge travel. The itinerary above is most certainly a vacation hike, which I enjoy from time to time. It will leave time for exploring, cooking well, and chatting with your companions, if you're in to that.

 

[dave.m]

+1

The Pemi loop is outstanding and infinitely better for camping.

But the Presis have the ravines and head walls. Great Gully. Ravine of the Castles. Huntingtons. More fun than bagging peaks.

 

[jfb]

You could do a loop of the Northern Presidentials. Park at the Pinkham Notch Visitor's Center and hike to the Hermit Lake shelters for the first day. Next day, hike up over Mt. Washington and head north to the Perch. On the third day, hike over Adams and Madison and follow the AT back to Pinkham.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

You could do a loop of the Northern Presidentials. Park at the Pinkham Notch Visitor's Center and hike to the Hermit Lake shelters for the first day. Next day, hike up over Mt. Washington and head north to the Perch. On the third day, hike over Adams and Madison and follow the AT back to Pinkham.

My nephews and I did a variation on this.

Pinkham Notch - Overnight at Osgood - Overnight at Camp Crag - Overnight at Lakes - Pinkham Notch

RMC hut was far and away the favorite of the group. But we all enjoyed the food at Lakes

 

[Mike P.]

What did you do in the High Peaks? The presi-traverse is maybe a little easier than a Great Range traverse but the weather & rock hopping are different than the elevation gain along the range. If the weather is good, an non-issue, however....

Sounds like your looking at weekends, the huts & the easier camping areas likely will be full (huts will be) unless you pull up early in the afternoon. The dungeon was pretty well described by Kevin, a stinking foul hole with a couple bunks would be a fair description. Any chance of going mid-week for a hut?

With an AMC Guide book & maps you can plan many trips that are loops. Northern Presidentials are easier to plan loops or with just a mile or so road walks as opposed to the Southern peaks. (Their is a shuttle but it runs on their time, not yours, if you can plan well, it's an option, I skip it.) Loops are available in the Pemi for a full loop or some partial loops, or with the Willey Range & Bonds with a longer woods walk. The Bonds, Franconia's & Twins are wonderful & they get much less traffic than Washington & some of the other Presidentials.

On a weekend in the summer, I could list 1/2 a dozen (at least, probably 15 - 20, just in NH) summits I'd rather be on than Washington. Yes, it's the highest, it's more of a tourist destination & a Sociology experience than a hike & wilderness. With Whitney, you only can hike up, it's quiet in comparison. If she was a guide in Yosomite, it should feel like home.

If you polled this group on whether they would rather sit on West Bond or Washington, the only Washington voters would be the ones trying to keep West Bond to themselves. (at this time, I'll tell everyone the beaches in NJ are ruined for decades, don't go )

 

[GBKDalton]

If you're not dead set on bagging every single Presidential peak during your trip, I would do a loop around the northern presidentials, staying at the RMC cabins (the three higher ones are only a mile apart, if one if full another will probably have space) and then at Hermit Lakes, where I think it's possible to reserve space. Climbing up to Madison and Adams on Day 1, you would drop down to Crag Camp or the Perch for the first night and then use the Randolph Path the next morning to regain the ridge right below Jefferson (with great views as you wind around the side of Adams). You would then go over Washington and down into Tuckerman's Ravine to the Hermit Lake shelters for the second night. On a clear day it's wonderful to be able to take your time, especially if your friends aren't experienced hikers. Another option that I would consider is base camping either in the Great Gulf (there are legal campsites down there) or at the RMC camps for two nights and peakbagging from there.

When you get your AMC guide, the maps will answer most of your questions about other parts of the Whites. Have fun!

 

[Kevin Rooney]

FWIW - I was at Lakes hut yesterday. There's somewhere between 3' and 4' of ice in the basement, aka "the Dungeon". My hunch is it will take a few more weeks to melt.

 

[Spiffae]

Hi Everyone! Well I feel like a real failed new member of VFTT. I got one e-mail subscription reminder and then nothing else so I never looked back here, and now I find there has been a rolling discussion! Oh well. Still planning and I guess it's only been about ten days. Just got my guide and maps and have been poring over them.

Everyone's feedback is unbelievably helpful. Is there anything better than a well-informed forum for getting detailed information? I think not. Anyway, back to planning.

I am not that "TRAVERSE OR BUST!" guy - I've been that person who attempted the route just because it was THE ROUTE (that would be the time my fiancee and I tried to do a great range traverse too late in the season and had to abort after two peaks because Irene had washed everything out and the later peaks were capped in ice. Whoops.) I just want to have a nice time with friends, we are all young and don't mind working hard, but we're less into bagging peaks and more into bagging nice times.

First of all thanks to Dave and hikerbrian for going above and beyond. Those responses will most likely shape our trip and I really appreciate them.

I like the idea of a loop or shuttle (we'll have two cars) rather than a series of day hikes, and I love hiking on ridges. The northern presis suggested by jfb looks doable, though days 2 and 3 seem pretty long and it seems like you really get one day of walking along the range and the rest is all getting in and out. Thoughts on that itinerary?

I also really like the sound of the Pemi loop from hikerbrian - seems doable and from my little research - lovely! My initial impetus for posting here and planning this trip was reading a story about the presidential traverse. I had never heard of the Pemi loop, but if you guys think it would be as good (or better) of an introduction to the Whites, we're absolutely game. The only thing I want to avoid is dragging my group through 15 miles of woods and have that be some of their first real backcountry experieinces. If the pemi loop is a good introduction to the whites and backpacking, then let's do it!

b

 

[Tom Rankin]

3' - 4 ' ? FEET?!