Watch the GPS or the Trail

[Raven]

I find myself grateful that I began hiking at a time before gps, cell phones, and other screen technology. There was something pure about seeking the address to request NEHH info and getting a manila envelope filled with scratchy photocopies of route notes.

It was a slow, deliberate, enjoyable process. Finding USGS maps, marking routes, then eventually using the descriptions and terrain features along with map and compass to find the summits. Those experiences cannot be matched using a screen. It had meaning. It was authentic.

Now a phone with an arrow will show you where to go while you shut your mind off. The skill set has left the person and been placed into the phone. So the question then is, what do you have, if you don't have your screen?

If your head is buried in a phone, please look up periodically so you don't run into the hikers.

 

[DayTrip]

I don't agree. I enjoy the hike even more. I stay longer to take time to photo shoot or check the emails. Can't get a better place to see the world we come from then looking into the phone on a summit. Or capturing the moment. Fool on the hill I guess. Your missing out in my opinion.

This is just one thing we do with the GPS at the summit. Your missing many more. We sit down with the gps and use the many mountain summit waypoints and other points in it to see the distance and bearing and enjoy every summit we find because of it. I doubt you can name every summit and hill all over NH and USA with just your eyes and brain.

I get that perspective and I probably did more of that when I first started hiking or when I am in a new area (although even then I have usually researched the hike thoroughly and don't need the map/GPS at least for what is around me). In the Whites I've been up there enough that I do indeed recognize everything I'm looking at from just about whatever summit I am on. I don't need the reference.

I tend to do what you describe much more at home when I pull my track up in CalTopo and review on the map on a nice big screen (I use a 47 inch TV as my computer monitor), look at terrain, toggle in and out of satellite view, etc. When I am actually on the trail I want to take in the views and take pictures. I take a ridiculous amount of pictures on most hikes. I have the whole work week to enjoy the "stats" of the hike and relive it through picture and videos. I find as I get older that the memory of the hikes fades so fast that I don't want to waste the actual in the moment enjoyment of it doing "homework". Bottom line is whatever you enjoy is what you should be doing. Doesn't matter what I'm doing.

 

[CaptCaper]

I get that perspective and I probably did more of that when I first started hiking or when I am in a new area (although even then I have usually researched the hike thoroughly and don't need the map/GPS at least for what is around me). In the Whites I've been up there enough that I do indeed recognize everything I'm looking at from just about whatever summit I am on. I don't need the reference.

I tend to do what you describe much more at home when I pull my track up in CalTopo and review on the map on a nice big screen (I use a 47 inch TV as my computer monitor), look at terrain, toggle in and out of satellite view, etc. When I am actually on the trail I want to take in the views and take pictures. I take a ridiculous amount of pictures on most hikes. I have the whole work week to enjoy the "stats" of the hike and relive it through picture and videos. I find as I get older that the memory of the hikes fades so fast that I don't want to waste the actual in the moment enjoyment of it doing "homework". Bottom line is whatever you enjoy is what you should be doing. Doesn't matter what I'm doing.

I agree but I just have time to do both on hikes and after plus enjoy hiking even more then years before the gps or phones came into it because of what they do. But that's me I have always been ahead of most in doing what I have had passion for in my life. From being a Master craftsman,PADI Divemaster, Snowmachines,Hiking,Building Boats and few other's. How do I know this? Let's say being 70yrs old I've seen a lot from this hill.

I really doubt you really know all the landmarks names precise distance's and bearings But I know what you mean.

 

[Nessmuk]

This is just one thing we do with the GPS at the summit. Your missing many more. We sit down with the gps and use the many mountain summit waypoints and other points in it to see the distance and bearing and enjoy every summit we find because of it. I doubt you can name every summit and hill all over NH and USA with just your eyes and brain.

What makes you think that people haven't been doing that for more than 150 years already with printed maps and a compass? In the northeast US you don't get many true long distance vista views unless you are on an open peak with a view. A compass and a map positioned such that the map is oriented to the earth will allow you to identify and enjoy every summit in view and find. When I guide a group to any location with a view, we enjoy using a bit of brainpower thought with study and observation of landscape and map, then putting the information together for identification. it's a fun thing to do and to realize that it can be done today by anyone just as it was done 100+ years ago by early surveyors and explorers. When my students learn how to do resection (triangulation) from distant visible points to pinpoint their current exact location, I often hear "hey this stuff really works" just as it did with early explorers. No batteries required

 

[CaptCaper]

What makes you think that people haven't been doing that for more than 150 years already with printed maps and a compass? In the northeast US you don't get many true long distance vista views unless you are on an open peak with a view. A compass and a map positioned such that the map is oriented to the earth will allow you to identify and enjoy every summit in view and find. When I guide a group to any location with a view, we enjoy using a bit of brainpower thought with study and observation of landscape and map, then putting the information together for identification. it's a fun thing to do and to realize that it can be done today by anyone just as it was done 100+ years ago by early surveyors and explorers. When my students learn how to do resection (triangulation) from distant visible points to pinpoint their current exact location, I often hear "hey this stuff really works" just as it did with early explorers. No batteries required

Is that so.Gee I didn't know that. I hope you have maps for every state you go near. Unless your are the one who just hikes Mt Washington and Lafayette every time. And yes to each his own. I use and do both. Depending on the day. Again at least hikers are starting to use them vs years ago when I tried to teach and many said it's a toy I only will use the compass and map. Yea right. I wouldn't hike with that buddy for a million bucks.

Cheer's

 

[Nessmuk]

Is that so.Gee I didn't know that. I hope you have maps for every state you go near. Unless your are the one who just hikes Mt Washington and Lafayette every time. And yes to each his own. I use and do both. Depending on the day. Again at least hikers are starting to use them vs years ago when I tried to teach and many said it's a toy I only will use the compass and map. Yea right. I wouldn't hike with that buddy for a million bucks.

I happen to have more than 200 USGS topo maps just of NY State that I use for personal hiking and SAR. Several Dozens of others where I have been or plan to go including the SW US, California, Hawaii, Guam, Alaska and Canada. When I plan to go someplace new, I get the appropriate maps for study and to carry. When I have an unplanned trip, such as a for a SAR callout, I use Caltopo, NGTopo or another download that I can print to paper (or load into a GPS for SAR). It is not difficult to get a real map to use which I do for SAR and canoe racing as mentioned earlier. DEC rangers distribute paper maps of the assigned search area and may or may not have GPS coordinates available, if not then I use the maps to manually calculate UTM coordinates to load into my GPS. GPS is Not toy, it is a tool. Use it if you prefer. i do not prefer unless I need it as a professional tool. I have surveyor friends who depend on the tool to do their job with centimeter precision. I don't need that level for what I do. And yes to each his own.
I personally would not have a hiking partner who knew nothing about how to read a map and compass or hadn't practiced in recent times, for 10 million bucks. My life might depend upon their knowledge and ability to with confidence navigate to safety without a battery.

 

[dug]

I agree but I just have time to do both on hikes and after plus enjoy hiking even more then years before the gps or phones came into it because of what they do. But that's me I have always been ahead of most in doing what I have had passion for in my life. From being a Master craftsman,PADI Divemaster, Snowmachines,Hiking,Building Boats and few other's. How do I know this? Let's say being 70yrs old I've seen a lot from this hill.

I really doubt you really know all the landmarks names precise distance's and bearings But I know what you mean.

Careful. Might pop your shoulder patting yourself on the back there.

 

[richard]

Do you own a smartphone? If you do then it is almost certain that it has a built in GPS and you carry it on your hikes.

If you don't then you have a life free of electronic chains. It's kind of a modern version of leading a hermit life (not judging anything here, just making a statement.)

Mr Hermit here. I don’t even own a cell phone ! ! ! . I don’t need the aggravation.

 

[peakbagger]

Scudders Viewing Guide was the resource for figuring out what you were looking at in the pre digital map database era. https://www.amazon.com/Scudders-White-Mountain-Viewing-Guide/dp/0964585693

Its worth the money for the one or two page description of how to predict when the weather will be the best on the summits for long distance views. He was supposed to come out with Maine edition but never did.

I have some copies from the Maine Forest Service of maps that were developed for use with a Osbourne firefinder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Fire_Finder. They were tower specific and were based on USGS 1921 topo except all the place name lettering was radially oriented from the center and surrounding the map was a hand drawn profile of the surrounding peaks out to the horizon with each summit named and special indicators for the location of other fire towers. I have the Aziscohos map and the Mt Speck map and they also indicate what state or nationality the visible towers were as from either tower, Maine, NH, VT and Canadian towers might be visible.

 

[Remix]

Mr Hermit here. I don’t even own a cell phone ! ! ! ��. I don’t need the aggravation.

Going back to the OP OT, it looks like there was a disagreement between which way to go based on the difference between terrain features and a GPS. Its not even clear that there would be agreement if that GPS was a compass. Then things went south, south being the direction of strong opinions about the GPS versus map and compass.

FWIW there is nothing more powerful than having all instruments available to you. Just look at the logic.

1) Reduces risk of losing position due to miscalculations or misuse

Misuse of GPS can be detected with map and compass. Misuse of map/compass (I have listed 2 incidents that occurred to me over the 18+ years I have been navigating with a compass). Although I never needed a compass while hiking in the Mojave, I took it with me without checking to see if there magnetic analogies from all the ore mines in the area. I reasoned that I could depend on terrain and the GPS so I went out anyway.

2) Enhances Practice with Map and Compass.

Sitting around in a class or in the comfort of many people on a short training hike and doing map/compass exercises is a good start, but you really don't have any skin to lose if someone points out your mistake before you start to move. And, if its very, very important to know your position, there is a good chance that anxiety is in the mix. Anxiety provokes errors.

In the ethic of self-reliance, skills have to be practiced and executed on your own. Practice is most effective when you can get good feedback from a GPS that your map/compass determination is off or when you can actually get a good feel for how far "off" you are. This builds confidence.


As I had suggested, AMC WMNF maps were indeed redrawn using a high end GPS/antenna system by a hiker. So there is a chicken/egg situation if you bring a map into the equation. Or perhaps, if you are adamant, you may want to question the accuracy of the GPS-drawn maps....

3) Ancillary Benefits

Are people still bringing nitrogen-charged pens and rite-in-the rain pads with them? I have used my GPS to mark water seeps and rattlesnake sightings (on Tongue Mountain Range), unusual birds or tracks, good places to camp, other sources of water, presence of beavers, whatever.... Its sort of a travel diary that does not cost anything, with nothing lost if it fails. The data is up in the cloud, is easy to share, gives unambiguous location information, and looking at it still brings fond memories back of some old hikes through Pharoah Wilderness for me.

 

[Salty]

Weren't all the AMC White Mountain maps generated by an employee hiking with a GPS?

What gear did he use?

Yep, Larry Garland to be precise. You can see his setup is a bit more professional grade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=x_NvGK_p7cc

 

[srhigham]

Larry Garland was using differential GPS. Per Wikipedia:

Differential Global Positioning Systems (DGPS) are enhancements to the Global Positioning System (GPS) which provide improved location accuracy, in the range of operations of each system, from the 15-meter
nominal GPS accuracy to about 10 cm in case of the best implementations.

Each DGPS uses a network of fixed ground-based reference stations to broadcast the difference between the positions indicated by the GPS satellite system and known fixed positions. These stations broadcast the difference between the measured satellite pseudoranges and actual (internally computed) pseudoranges, and receiver stations may correct their pseudoranges by the same amount. The digital correction signal is typically broadcast locally over ground-based transmitters of shorter range.

 

[iAmKrzys]

GPS is Not toy, it is a tool.

For some tools and some people (myself included) the line between a tool and a toy gets very, very blurry!

It's definitely one of the tools in my hiking toolbox and I do carry paper maps and compass. I did loose a map mid-hike not that long ago, so it's good to have options.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

to be precise.

I see what you did there
Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Larry Garland was using differential GPS. Per Wikipedia:

Differential Global Positioning Systems (DGPS) are enhancements to the Global Positioning System (GPS) which provide improved location accuracy, in the range of operations of each system, from the 15-meter
nominal GPS accuracy to about 10 cm in case of the best implementations.

Each DGPS uses a network of fixed ground-based reference stations to broadcast the difference between the positions indicated by the GPS satellite system and known fixed positions. These stations broadcast the difference between the measured satellite pseudoranges and actual (internally computed) pseudoranges, and receiver stations may correct their pseudoranges by the same amount. The digital correction signal is typically broadcast locally over ground-based transmitters of shorter range.

DGPS corrections can also be applied in post-processing. Some of the trail locations might not have been allowed reception of the DGPS signal preventing real-time corrections. If one records the pseudo-ranges received at both the reference location and the rover, the corrections can be applied later. (This is what is often done for the highest accuracy surveying. The highest accuracy surveying can also use measured satellite orbits rather than the predicted orbits used for real-time location.)

The accuracy of DGPS depends on a number of things, including the distance between the reference and the rover. (Closer is more accurate.)

Doug

 

[Remix]

DGPS corrections can also be applied in post-processing. Some of the trail locations might not have been allowed reception of the DGPS signal preventing real-time corrections. If one records the pseudo-ranges received at both the reference location and the rover, the corrections can be applied later. (This is what is often done for the highest accuracy surveying. The highest accuracy surveying can also use measured satellite orbits rather than the predicted orbits used for real-time location.)

The accuracy of DGPS depends on a number of things, including the distance between the reference and the rover. (Closer is more accurate.)

Doug

I think Doug is right.

Larry's receiver was probably not receiving the correction signals. However, some server on the interwebz was recording the correction data. Larry probably uploaded his data to a service like OPUS (free), OPUS figured out what the best reference station was based on distance and satellite constellation, OPUS did the math and applied corrections to Larry's data , and then OPUS emailed Larry with the superaccurate tracks

I just did some checking...and no, unfortunately, we cannot submit our past GPX files to Opus and have them post processed to highly accurate tracks...OPUS only accepts data from survey grade receivers...

 

[Nessmuk]

For some tools and some people (myself included) the line between a tool and a toy gets very, very blurry!

It's definitely one of the tools in my hiking toolbox and I do carry paper maps and compass. I did loose a map mid-hike not that long ago, so it's good to have options.

One of these may help. I have several different sizes and I never go afield without carrying my map(s) in one. Windproof and waterproof. Infinitely more durable than a zip lock bag while traveling through heavy brush. Difficult to leave behind while bushwhacking after a rest stop, as you refer to it to continue on your route.
https://www.seallinegear.com/map-case

 

[jfb]

No the bushwhacker said the gps says got this way...up the ravine. So we followed. We lost close to a good hour pushing through the trees and DEEP snow.

I'll bet the bushwhacker learned something about following trails as a result of this trip. Y'all did well by sticking together and staying out of trouble. If I were the leader, I would not let him break trail in the future.

 

[Nessmuk]

Snow covered trails can be difficult to follow, but even in summer mistakes are made that can lead one astray on what should be easy to follow trails.

I was instructing an annual wilderness guide training course when hiking on the way into an area for an overnight stay we came upon an intersecting trail coming in at an angle to the main trail in a "Y". I stopped the group to specifically point out a misshapen birch tree at the "Y" intersection. Note also that the main route is a well traveled canoe trail.

Normally I follow the group at the end of the line and a designated student as group leader makes all the decisions (the students take turns being "leader of the day"). I only intervene in case of impending safety issues, but not for navigation errors. I let those errors play out with whatever consequence follows. The next day on the way out, sure enough the student guide by passed by that birch on the wrong side, heading down the wrong trail. Now this odd diverging trail ran offset but semi-parallel to the desired trail, but with a spruce swamp in between. So on what is supposed to be a canoe carry trail, we are walking through muddy spots with no previous tracks (such as ours from the day before), and there are low hanging trees that would make overhead canoe carrying impossible. No one seemed to notice these facts or to remember the details of the correct trail which had curves and small hills. I just let this go on for as far as they would take us. Finally after about a half mile one of the students thought something was wrong. A discussion, not quite an argument ensued with the leader and other students. I just shrugged my shoulders when they looked at me. Looking at the map, some wanted to cut across the swamp to reach the right trail and where we left our canoes. Ultimately, we backtracked to the missed intersection as was the correct decision. I had to remind them of that odd tree, and why I always turn around to observe the reverse view whenever I come across an intersection or other location of note. All ended up well, everyone passed the course that year, but not without a strong critique.

I'm glad they made this mistake ( and several others during the week of training). When I was learning the craft, I made many mistakes, but learned good things from each one and resolved to never let that happen again. Luckily none were fatal or extremely serious, but had I continued and not recognized some of the worst mistakes early, they could have been. Learning by mistake, and analyzing how and why the mistake was made, IMO was the best way to learn. I never forgot what my Air Force instructor navigator once told me so many years ago. I can still hear him while standing over my shoulder saying: "Every navigator will make mistakes. The difference between a new navigator and an experienced one is how quickly the mistake is recognized and corrected." I have lived by that advice ever since in my air and land navigation endeavors.

 

[Grey J]

"I always turn around to observe the reverse view whenever I come across an intersection or other location of note." Nessmuk

Possibly the best piece of advice contained in this entire thread.