Watching Avalanches in the Washington ravines?

[dug]

" Still, it is worth remembering that digging a pit is no substitute for good routefinding skills and risk management/avoidance."

With the slide I referred to earlier in the Gulf of Slides, the person who was digging the pit actually caused the slide which eventually killed him.

 

[ralphnetta]

chasing avalanches

Check out this site www.csac.org

 

[Nadine]

El-bagr typed:

Something simple, like one searcher failing to turn off her transmitter, can disrupt the recovery effort. In the panic and focus that naturally follows a disaster, searchers often place themselves in danger (through exposure to hangfire or pther proximal hazards) without being aware.

This is so true. People who panic in disasters often need to be reminded what to do and what not to do.

Again, I must emphasize that good routefinding skills and risk management are more certain to lead to optimal outcomes than body recovery skills. This trend is increasingly recognized by teachers of snow science, where the traditional focus on pit digging techniques is being supplanted by routefinding and skier objective management foremost, with beacon search techniques as secondary -- the idea being that it is more valuable to teach drivers how to avoid collisions than how to operate the "jaws of life".

Thanks for pointing that out El-bagr. Enhancing my route finding skills would be a fine idea for this years bc focus, along with multi beacon searches. Interestingly, my first avalanche involvement was in BC was on a guided hut trip, they led us over a convex roll on a 35 degree pitch Maybe they should have worked on their route finding skills a little more.

Nadine

 

[DougPaul]

There is some evidence being developed that is showing that people with training are, in some cases, being in more fatal avalanche accidents than are untrained people...

There is a problem with these studies in that they only study fatal accidents--they do not know how many people go out without an accident so they cannot study risk.

Articles in the last two issues of Coulior (vols XVIII-2 and XVII-3 (Nov 2005)).

Doug

 

[Nadine]

DougPaul typed:

There is some evidence being developed that is showing that people with training are, in some cases, being in more fatal avalanche accidents than are untrained people...

I'm guessing false sense of security is probably responsible for this. Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous. Experiencing an avalanche first-hand changes all that though, it's quite humbling.

There is a problem with these studies in that they only study fatal accidents--they do not know how many people go out without an accident so they cannot study risk.

Difficult to do. Look at Rudy Berlinger's guide service from Selkirk Mtn Experience, for instance. He was in business for many years, and guided hundreds of people on bc ski tours without an incident. Then one day...

Articles in the last two issues of Coulior (vols XVIII-2 and XVII-3 (Nov 2005)).

Even references, I can appreciate that


Nadine

 

[DougPaul]

I'm guessing false sense of security is probably responsible for this. Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous. Experiencing an avalanche first-hand changes all that though, it's quite humbling.

My guess is that people who are untrained make more effort to stay away from avalanche zones. (For instance, I know enough to recognize an avalanche zone, but have no training in detailed analysis. Thus I just avoid harm's way.) A trained person is more likely to go in the avalanche zone if he reads the specific conditions to be safe. And he might occasionally be wrong.

Another cause might be that people who want to go in avalanche zones get training...

There are also some very interesting suggestions about the social effects of a group. The data shows fewer solo deaths than group deaths in some situations.

Even references

Took a bit of searching, but I found a copy of the article on the web: http://www.snowpit.com/articles/traps reprint.pdf. Worth a read.

Doug

 

[sardog1]

This is so true. People who panic in disasters often need to be reminded what to do and what not to do.

This is why I harp on the need for early season and season-long beacon practice, including the multi-victim scenario you alluded to. People who travel into avalanche terrain need enough practice searching so that it can be done almost without thinking about the technique. If you're rescuing (and not merely recovering) your party member(s), you have a scant few minutes to get the job done -- after you have evaluated the hazards of the scene, of course! The stress of having someone's life at stake will be enormous, particularly since it's almost certainly going to be someone you know, maybe a family member.

How to combat that stress? Practice, practice, practice. It's also a good idea to have someone loudly ticking off the minutes and doing other things to simulate the urgency and stress of the real deal. No, it's not the same as the real deal. But practicing enough to get habitual with your response under pressure is way better than trying to recall how to operate the beacon while your spouse or sister or child is breathing his/her last a few yards away.

And make sure your party member(s) practice just as much, or you might be remembered as the person who practiced what s/he preached but didn't preach enough to his/her traveling companions ...

 

[DougPaul]

Practice, practice, practice.

There is a saying in the military: "Train like you fight and fight like you train".

In other words, when the emergency comes, you tend to repeat what you did in training/practice. So train/practice well (and often).

Doug

 

[dug]

"My guess is that people who are untrained make more effort to stay away from avalanche zones."

I will again refer to the tragedy in Gulf of Slides. After meeting with two skiers on their way out from the bowl, my buddy and I chatted with them for a few minutes on the trail. It was early on a Sunday morning. We had packed up our tents and decided to ski up to see the area. Neither of us had the right gear (and me enough experience) to ski the slides. The two other skiers advised us the winds looked bad, and with recent snows a slide was probable. The male skier looked very experienced, and told me of some of his trips he had been on: Jefferson snowfields, Oakes Gulf, Great Gulf, etc. I was in awe, as I wanted to get to that level someday. They went down the trail, we went up.

We hung around for a bit in the bowl, turned around, skied down, grabbed our packs, and went home. Apparently, after getting to their tents they decided to go back up..and I've already told you the rest. That was a case where experience definantly cost them. After advising us that the conditions were ripe and that we shouldn't be there (they were correct), they decided to go back up anyway.

I will never forget that day as long as I live. Don't F@#% with avalanches.

 

[Nadine]

Took a bit of searching, but I found a copy of the article on the web: http://www.snowpit.com/articles/traps reprint.pdf. Worth a read.

Interesting read, thanks for the link. I found it interesting that most avalanche victims are injured on familiar terrain, and that when people with avalanche skills ski on familiar terrain, they tend to expose themselves to the same risks as an untrained person, they ignore their own knowledge and experience...what gives?

The article goes on to talk about how often time heuristics work well in daily life, but in avalanche terrain, they can lead to potentially fatal errors in decision making.

Interesting. I can see how improved routefinding skills could fit right in here and help eliviate many problems with both trained and untrained skiers/hikers.

 

[cbcbd]

Not to promote the mentality of "preparing for being caught in an avalanche" before honing route finding skills, but I came across this breathing assistance apparatus made by BD called the Avalung - www.avalung.com

They work by helping you breathe when you are buried - it releases your exhaled CO2 to another location so it lessens the chance of CO2 poisoning and increases the amount of time you can stay buried until found by rescuers.

Does anyone know of anyone who has used this? The idea makes sense and the tests and few testimonials show that it definitely increases chance of survival.

Of course, like discussed, this shouldn't replace prudent decision making that could avoid avalanches all together, but it would be a good additional tool to have if you are constantly putting yourself in avalanche risk.

 

[dug]

The Avalung is becoming more and more common of a device for backcountry skiers in the past few years. It's pretty much mandatory equipment for skiers out west.

 

[el-bagr]

While my personal view is that it is a stretch to say that the Avalung is considered mandatory ski equipment in any part of the world, there is increasing evidence that it can make a difference.

recent ttips avalung discussion
ttips avalung article and accompanying discussion

but see discussion and article on correlation between better protection and increased adverse outcome

Note that similar equipment exists for kayakers -- e.g. the Spare Air, a mini scuba tank and regulator. Though the comparison is not necessarily smooth, I believe that the Spare Air is not popular among boaters.

While it is true that I'd want the best possible gear for surviving a burial, I still believe that preventative knowledge and discretion are our most valuable tools. Even assuming that a burial is unavoidable, the Avalung requires you to locate the mouthpiece and insert it in your mouth before the snow sets up; during that same amount of time, there are other things you could be doing to prevent ice-masking and plug aspiration. Additionally, the Avalung does nothing to help you get out on your own; it will only help delay ice-masking, plug aspiration, and CO2 asphyxiation. These criticisms do not minimize the value of something like the Avalung, but are intended only to point out that the Avalung alone is not enough.

 

[DougPaul]

Not to promote the mentality of "preparing for being caught in an avalanche" before honing route finding skills, but I came across this breathing assistance apparatus made by BD called the Avalung - www.avalung.com

Been around for a few years.

I read recently that the survival rate for those buried in avalanches is only 30-40%. The Avalung might increase your chances or might already be included in that numer. (Or it might only prolong your death...) Using such a device is better than not, but the biggest emphasis should be on staying out of avalanches, not trying to survive them.

Doug

 

[king tut]

Wednesday might be a good avalanche day. I checked the forecast for mt washington on weather.com, and it was saying 10-15 inches of snow tomorrow and another 10-15 tomorrow night. Could it be the perfect storm brewing out in the Atlantic?

 

[Frodo]

I bought an Avalung a few years ago, but I have never used it. I agree with others, it's kind of bulky and I had a hard time picturing myself being able to use it while incased in the type snow that avy's tend to leave you in. You would have to be able to move (at least bend your neck and clear a path to the mouth piece). Even if you are successful, your time is still limited...

I witnessed 6 avalanches while climbing Denali (one was a massive one that ripped down one of the chutes on Mt. Foraker, which was 3 miles away, but still thundered), and heard over a dozen more while stuck in the tent. Even witnessed a serac fall from a 1/4 mile away, which caused an avalanche to stop only 100 yards from us (a close encounter of the deadly kind, which was too close for comfort), and I also agree that we should try and aviod the situation whenever possible.

Now there are times when one has to gamble in avalanche territory, and besides awareness, beacons are probably the best technology, but you are still relying on other people to find and dig you out. As for the Avalung, spend your money on an avalanche awareness course. The course has a better chance at saving your life...