Water purification, Hygene and the Imune system

[Bluethroatedone]

Continuing in the vein of the water/snow purification threads...We've all been talking about the need to purify as a one size fits all.

Couple thoughts I'd like to bring into play. 1 Differences in views of Hygene across people 2. Differences in imune systems.

Below is me rambling my thoughts...any or all comments much appreciated.

Imune diferences
When I spoke to my doctor a couple years ago about Flu shots he told me the following. If you are old, have weak imune system, live with someone who does, have a baby at home etc. it is wise to get a flu shot as the consequences of getting the flu can be significant. On the other hand if you are young, fit, strong and have a great immue system, it may not make sense. Furthermore, successfuly fighting off this seasons flu, like fighting off lots of other stuff, makes you more able to fight it off next year. Taking the shot does too, but to a lesser extent. Should we think about water purification the same way as flu shots, the more the personal likelyhood and potential impact of getting sick the more careful you should be?

2.Hygene differences? Question here is - is this just an extension of the wash your hands every six minutes movement?

I don't get flu shots, don't take anti-biotics until I absolutetely need to etc. I don't avoid weird countries. I go to rural India, Kyrgyzstan, Nepal etc. I don't eat from street vendors there, nor raw food, but I eat cooked food in ~nicer roadside restaurants. Sure I've gotten amibas, travelers diarhea etc, but a couple days of feeling like someone's punching you in the stomach repeatedly ain't really that bad in the long run. I was raised in a family where if some piece of food fell on the floor my parents would pick it up and put it under the faucet then give it back to me or pop it in their mouths. I don't disinfect every area in my house. I was my cutting board, pans etc. with water, not soap, even after cooking fish (we don't eat meat). I don't wash my hands except after going to the batchroom. I share bottles with others. I chew on pens. I am sick much less often than others. I'm not saying this is caused by this, just an obsvervation. It could be I just have a strong imune system.

Very few developed countries are as militarist on hygene as the US with few noticable differences in medical problem rates. If anything we have higher rates of hospital admitance, lower life expectancies etc than for most European countries.

Where I'm getting to is...is boiling/filtering all your water like washing your hands and disinfecting everything in your house (lowers total amount of days sick per year for most healthy people by a few %) or like playing with lead, wearing sunscreen etc.

My guess is more the former but what about y'all....

 

[Oldsmores]

I've speculated for years that our immune systems are something that develop as they are "exercised", based on the type of anecdotal evidence that Blue talks about. There actually have been some studies published within the last few years that suggest that our obsession with disinfecting everything has resulted in children having less robust immune systems and increasing rates of allergies. One that I recall found that children who grow up on working farms have far fewer illnesses than suburban children. I guess it's an extension of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

 

[cbcbd]

I'm in complete agreement with you, Blue.

I grew up in middle class Brazil and when I came to the US I felt the over persecution of germs ridiculous. I guess it may seem normal to ones who have lived here their entire lives, but so much emphasis is put into destroying every little thing that could possibly cause you harm.
I'm not saying a certain level of hygiene is bad, but we take it to unnecessary OCD levels.

I guess we can't blame the personal hygiene industry for trying to make some money


edit: Oh, and to answer your question about water purification:
I have drank directly from the source in the past if the location and situation hint that the water hasn't been too bombarded with animal waste (ie. towards the top of more remote mountains). I have gotten sick in the past from bad water judgement, though, and even tough it wasn't pleasant I eventually got over it after a couple weeks (if it had gone further I would've sought med attn).
Most of the times I do filter my water, but I will never go so overboard to combine different purifying systems in order to make sure that my water is 100% everything-free. Hey, sometimes the little buggers add flavor (you can't tell me you haven't had some yummy acidophilus lately)

 

[Chip]

I carry some of that alcohol gel (Purell, Alcohol Gel, Hand sanitizers in ... Kills 99.9% of most common disease causing germs within 15 seconds...) as I feel its easier for me and my boys to use while on the trail.

On a somewhat separate note; there was a report today regarding a huge increase in reported cases of bed bug infestations, attributed to removing DTE from the environment. So I guess an argument could be made for an increased need for disease prevention measures. I don't think filtering or boiling and Purell are too much of a burden.

 

[Puck]

I carry some of that alcohol gel (Purell, Alcohol Gel, Hand sanitizers in ... Kills 99.9% of most common disease causing germs within 15 seconds...) as I feel its easier for me and my boys to use while on the trail.

On a somewhat separate note; there was a report today regarding a huge increase in reported cases of bed bug infestations, attributed to removing DTE from the environment. So I guess an argument could be made for an increased need for disease prevention measures. I don't think filtering or boiling and Purell are too much of a burden.

funny you should mention bedbugs. I always wondered if there may be infestations in huts and shelters. http://medent.usyd.edu.au/fact/bedbugs.html
They are not known to be a vector of any disease, however, thier bites can cause allergic reactions in some even anaphylactic shock.

 

[KMartman]

Im with BLUE too...why worry....all the worry is making for weaker future generations, not only immunity wise, but all around...

EAT DIRT...

M

 

[Puck]

EAT DIRT...

M

So you have had my cooking

 

[the starchild]

if it doesn't kill you.......

bluethroatedone..right on!

i think i completely agree with you. hygene, risk of illness and decisions effecting these things differ in people and situations. i too usually don't take asprin for headaches pain etc unless i really need to. our immune systems are only as strong as we build them.

i also don't understand when there is a flu outbreak or something similiar that takes the lives of only the very old or young, why healthy people worry about getting sick themselves so much. i can certainly understand some worry, its only natural and good, but not to the degree that many panic and talk about their fears of catching it and dying themselves.

although i firmly belive all people should be treated equally and fairly.....
since a kid i never, ever believed we were all created equal. some are smarter, some stronger muscles, some stronger immune systems, some more in touch with emotions etc etc.

the key is to strive to know yourself, your situation and make the best decisions....which will vary person to person, but not necessarily be more or less wrong or right.

 

[Bluethroatedone]

Great to know I'm not alone

Phew...for a while I thought I was the only Granola nutcase out here

 

[Pete_Hickey]

"What doesn't kill you, will make you stronger."

 

[funkyfreddy]

My immune system gets plenty of "exercise" from breathing air on the subway and other crowded places in NYC, and from some of the exotic foods I eat.

 

[post'r boy]

i agree with bluethroatedone!!!
yup. that's the ticket. well said!!!

 

[Lawn Sale]

It's a worthy question you are asking, but I don't know that there is a difinitive answer since everyone's immune system is different.

Traveling to other countries you are undoubtedly accustomed to hearing about water transmitted diseases. While I don't think we should be distilling our water, I do think some prudence is required to at least purify it to a minor degree. The best immune system in the world won't protect you against some of what's in the water, and how would you build an immunity to it?

I agree with the concept, don't get me wrong, and also think along the same lines, but I have to wonder if it's comparing apples and oranges. Are the vectors the same for different infectious constituents? I don't have an answer, I'm just fostering it for further thought.

 

[Stan]

I agree somewhat but suggest caution in using it as a rationale for being careless with hygiene.

For example, the notion that young and fit equates with a highly resistent immune system is not a logical connection. You can be both youthful and fit but still have a weak immune system. (Magic Johnson is fairly young and certainly fit but his immune system is no longer highly resistent.) Over use of antibiotics with children and young people has often resulted in the failure to build a strong immune system because the body has not developed the antibodies necessary for a strong immune system. Having gone the route of the usual childhood dieases and ear infections in themselves contribute to a strengthening of the immune system ... hence the Hickey hypothy, "what does not kill you makes you stronger."

The suggestion that higher hospital admittances in the US vs. elsewhere is related to excessive hygiene is a real leap in logic. First, you have to know the reasons for the differences. I speculate it based more on the freedom associated with our medical system versus more socialized or managed care systems. Second, I speculate that greater admissions may also be connected with higher fat diets and obesity which is generally more problematic in the US.

Finally, I think that hygiene insofar as it involves the cleanliness and sanitation of others is as much a matter of good manners as it is good health.

 

[Kandover]

Its also important to realize that getting the flu one year doesn't do much for the next flu you are exposed to unless it is the exact same strain or a very close relative. So while you're "training" your immune system, you're only training it to recognize those strains that are identical or very close to the strain you are exposed to.

I teach at a boarding school and get exposed to all sorts of viruses and while I now get less viruses compared to the kids (getting more sleep might help as well), I usually get a couple of things a year. Since all the bugs are constantly evolving you're never going to be immune to all of them even if you go around catching lots of things.

Not to say that I don't think we are too obsessive about cleanliness, but you're not going to get immune to everything by ignoring hygeine.

 

[Bluethroatedone]

Hospital

Stan, I was kinda using the argument the other way. I wasn't necessarily saying that good hygene leads to more hospital admitances, but that if it was so beneficial to wipe down every surface with Clorox you would likely see significantly lower admitances in the US than elsewhere.

Clearly really bad hygene is a bad thing (i.e. I would not eat with my left hand in rural India), but there comes a point when the marginal value of investing in better hygene is very low (and I would argue potentialy negative given the immune system issue).

Brushing teeth could be a good example. Brushing once a day is clearly better than none at all. Brushing 100 times a day is bad for your teeth. Three times is probably slightly better than twice, but personally probably not worth it.

When driven by fear we often underestimate the value of our time, especially when you talk about something that doesn't take very long, forgetting that when repeated that time adds up to a significant chunk.

One of my professors once told the class: Think about the last 5 years. How many planes have you missed? If the answer is very few, you have spent WAY too much time in airports. [He went on to explain that over a long period the sum of the cost of waiting in airports should roughly equal the negative utility of total missed planes]

In the same vein, While I don't want to ever get seious diseases, if I never get mild stomach aches, diahreas etc. in the wild, I've spent too much time/energy on Hygene.

 

[Rick]

Wow, something I can speak intelligently about Bedbugs and Influenza.
(sorry, all but this might get long)

My father owned a pest control company from the 50's to the mid 90's and I worked for him for many years. I remember bedbugs as a kid - We always got at least a half dozen bedbug jobs a year in the 60's and 70's and then they dried up - No more bedbugs! Imagine my surprise that they are now popping up randomly in nice hotels, much to the dismay of hotelliers. Whats even more concerning is that it takes a short while for these little bloodsuckers to build up a sizeable population, so it might be months before anyone even knows they are around.

FWIW, I do travel a bit for work - at least 30-40 days/year. Here's what I do to check for the bloodsuckers now - I pull back the top cover and get rid of it for starters - Those big covers are usually not washed much and have probably had the last dozen travelers in there before me lounging half-naked on them and have god knows what.. growing on them.

I then pull up the sheets and check the round cord stitch (Like a lapfell seam) that runs the length and ends of the top and bottom of the mattress and boxspring (some models don't have them in all spots). I then lift each corner of the mattress about a foot to quickly check between the Boxspring and Mattress. If they are there, you'll see them looking like little tiny "stop signs". Then I'm set. If I do get get cold during the night, I grab the blanket in the closet or call for Housekeeping to bring up another blanket, but still avoif the bed cover.

Note - I do this in hotels but not really local hostels and friends houses simply because there is a greater chance that a foreign visitor slept in the bed more recently in most international cities than any local hangouts.

As for influenza I previously handled the Federal Contracting for Evans Medical ("Fluvirin" in the UK) which became Chiron and had all the problems last year. I left there 5 years ago to work for Sanofi Aventis (we are the other big influenza Vaccine maker "Fluzone"). The third company is much smaller (Medimmune - Maryland) and has the license (in conjunction with Wyeth) for Flushield/Flumist.

Anyway, boring details aside, I don't know how many on this board have ever had the Flu, the real Flu - Influenza. It isn't something that causes you to call in from work for a day or two. It is much worse. I had it once when I was a strapping body builder all of 21 years old. It laid me up in bed for a full 2 weeks, horrible pains, nausea, vomitting chills fever, dizziness. It really is devastating to your system. People speak of Cold and Flu interchangeably, and speak of getting the flu, but influenza is truly a different beast than some small viral infection.

One of the horrible side or secondary effects of Influenza can be Pneumonia, a bacterial infection of the respiratory system. I think the 2 of them together are like the 6th or 7th leading cause of death.

If you have a chance to get the Influenza vaccine, I would suggest going for it. When I was at my last employer, who owned Evans, we were all given annual vaccines. The same at Sanofi-Aventis. My only side effects in 13 years of shots have been a sore arm for a day or two (anecdotally speaking).

Anyways, the flu can strike anyone and leave them feeling like they were hit by a train. I do wish everyone a flu-free season, though (just get our vaccine )

 

[Rick]

I think Stan and Bkuethroatedone are both referring to homeopathic practices (In Hickey speak, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger") of which (thankfully) , I know nothing about other than the definition!!!

 

[ADK Rick]

I am late joining this thread, but let me chime in as I am firmly in the "let them eat a peck of dirt" camp or whatever the old saying is. My wife carries around a bottle of lysol in a holster, hoses our entire hotel room down when we travel, arries that germ killing hand cleaner everywhere, etc. She is also constantly sick. My theory...too much germ killing, no chance for the immune system to develop. Me? I havent had so much as a cold in almost 6 years now. I drink untreated water fairly frequently, not down low mind you but I am not fearful of water taken from higher sources with little possibility of camping above me. Never any problems. YMMV.

ADK Rick

 

[paul ron]

Dirt eaters unite....

Well, this has been something my friends and I discuss every time we are out in the woods. One of my friends has mild case of hypocondria and believs he has to have a sterile environment. He also believes in homeopathic remedy which seems to be contradictory to his sterile environment theory. My other camping friend and I are dirt eaters. Who do you think always gets sick and has to drop out all the time despite all the preventative herbs and cures?... the hypocondriac herbalist!

Of course there are certain hygenic practices that have to be followed for the safety of the group as there are consequences to sharing with others. Washing or disenfecting hands after the toilet or before preparing or sharing food is just plain common sence.

Pumping up our immune systems by exposure does make humans less suseptable to common germs that try to harm us, that is how the immune system works and it has worked fine without Johnson n Johnson since the beging of man. This is exactly what makes us stronger and of course the saying goes... "only the strong survive."