What Do I Put On My Feet For Winter Hikes

[iagreewithjamie]

Not much to add, but one comment on 10-point crampons with a leather boot.
Most crampons can be adjusted to be rigid, or have bend - you need to make sure they will bend with a leather boot due to boot flex.
10-points on leather are great going up, but sometimes the flex of the boot on the descent can be tricky.

As for the ice axe, I carry one when I'm doing steep climbs - it helps provide anchoring, it makes a great hand hold, and hooks on to trees nicely. I've never had to self-arrest, and there aren't many places in the whites where that would be needed... but I have found some use for it (not much).

 

[DougPaul]

One of the biggest arguments I've read is how many "points" your crampons should have. I've read 12 is a minimum on many posts, 10 or less on others, others say it doesn't matter. Also, apparently there are two types of crampons: ones for rigid technical boots and floating types for use on normal boots. Anybody want to weigh in on that? Is there any advantage to a technical winter boot for regular hiking? (i.e. warmer, comfort, etc).

The key issue is the placement of the points (front points or not) rather than the number of points. Front points are required for a specific technique (known as front-pointing or Austrian technique) used on steep ice. They are not generally required for hiking. One has to be careful when wearing front points--it is easy to gore one's calves with them.

12-point crampons usually have front points and 10-pointers usually do not. But check rather than going by the numbers.

Technical (as in technical climbing) winter boot means a rigid-soled insulated boot (full shank). Rigid soles are better than flexible for steep ice and snow (particularly when front-pointing) and flexible boots (often 3/4 shank) are better for walking. Rigid boots work pretty well on snow, but can be a bit awkward on bumpy, rocky surfaces.

Rigid boots can take either a flexible or a rigid crampon. Flexible boots require flexible crampons. (A rigid crampon is likely to break if used on a flexible boot.)

My winter boots are rigid leather double technical boots with a full steel shank. (Old top-of-the-line. Newer technical boots are generally plastic.)

Doug
(ex-ice climber)

 

[TJsName]

One last question: how do you keep your goggles from fogging and freezing? The day I did Cannon it was about -12 deg F (before windchill). I was sweating during the climb so as soon as I cleared the trees and put my goggles on they fogged and froze in about 10 seconds. Switched to my Oakley's.....ditto. I was putting them on for the brightness (crystal clear skies) more than anything so I got by without them but I couldn't help but think what would happen if I'd been well above treeline and it was a white out or snowing. How do you keep your goggle clear and see where you're going???

I'm curious what people know about this as well. I've yet to try/need goggles, but I've had issues with my sunglasses fogging. The only thing I've found that works is to take a break and let my face dry off, then put them on. Not very efficient...

 

[DougPaul]

Also, ice axe(s)? Most "beginner" winter climbing sites list this as a must have item but I rarely see it mentioned on sites with more experienced climbers. I generally have my hiking poles with snow baskets. Is an ice axe really just for technical climbs? I don't see it's use in a normal hike but I am new to this. Thoughts?

Ice axes are often used when one is using crampons and poles are often paired with snowshoes. However, an ice axe is often more useful on steep snow.

An ice axe is a dangerous tool with three sharp and potentially lethal points. Get some instruction in how to use it (safely) before carrying it. However, it is also the best tool for safeguarding oneself in certain situations.

The best reference for how to use an ice axe is "Climbing Ice" by Yvon Chouinard. "Freedom of the Hills" has a short section. For a short dissertation on how to use an axe, see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?15140-ice-axe-technique&p=167858&viewfull=1#post167858. The rest of the thread is also worth reading.

Doug

 

[iagreewithjamie]

Ice axes are often used when one is using crampons and poles are often paired with snowshoes. However, an ice axe is often more useful on steep snow.

An ice axe is a dangerous tool with three sharp and potentially lethal points. Get some instruction in how to use it (safely) before carrying it. However, it is also the best tool for safeguarding oneself in certain situations.

The best reference for how to use an ice axe is "Climbing Ice" by Yvon Chouinard. "Freedom of the Hills" has a short section. For a short dissertation on how to use an axe, see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?15140-ice-axe-technique&p=167858&viewfull=1#post167858. The rest of the thread is also worth reading.

Doug

And the most important thing... they make summit photos look better.

 

[Lawn Sale]

I rarely use an ice axe for hiking, but have found them handy when encountering an icy flow because I'll usually take that route since it's often easier. Without an ice axe the long very-steep stretches can be done, but not as easily or positively. All of the winter 48 can be easily done without one, however.

Ice axes come in two varieties, not to be confused with one another. One is the technical ice axe, which is usually shorter, with either a hammer or claw end, a pick that is replaceable, and is designed to be used for technical climbing. A mountaineering axe is lighter, longer, has non-replaceable heads, usually only comes with a claw, and is NOT to be used for technical climbing. I have several of both and each have their uses. If you don't know, like DougPaul mentioned, it's best probably not to carry one until you know why you need it.

There is also a big difference between crampons with forged front points and those with stamped front points. For hiking I prefer a double point that I can adjust so I'm not tripping over myself but for climbing I prefer a monopoint that is canted down and out more. Crampons with stamped front points are often much lighter than their more technical counterparts and I have no experience with the very lightweight aluminum hiking crampons so I cannot comment on those. IME usually has a great sale at the end of the year on their rental gear where you can buy slightly used equipment for a significant savings. Also watch the EMS sales since they have a better selection of hiking crampons than most stores.

 

[DougPaul]

Ice axes come in two varieties, not to be confused with one another. One is the technical ice axe, which is usually shorter, with either a hammer or claw end, a pick that is replaceable, and is designed to be used for technical climbing. A mountaineering axe is lighter, longer, has non-replaceable heads, usually only comes with a claw, and is NOT to be used for technical climbing. I have several of both and each have their uses. If you don't know, like DougPaul mentioned, it's best probably not to carry one until you know why you need it.

Claw? Do you mean adz?

The boundaries between the types of axe are often fuzzy...

I have no experience with the very lightweight aluminum hiking crampons so I cannot comment on those.

I have no experience with them either because I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole. They may be ok on pure snowfields, but NE is full of rocks. If you touch an aluminum point to a rock, it will be so deformed as to be useless... Even hard ice would destroy the points in short order.

Doug

 

[summitseeker]

All good advice. I have 36" Atlas snowshoes, 25" Tubbs Flex Alp and 22" Denali Ascents. My Atlases are definitely for below treeline unbroken terrain. I find them to be a real workout in any sort of hilly terrain. Plus they are just awkward to maneuver on. You're right there is little floatation in unpacked terrain with the smaller shoes but that's where having a hiking friend or two comes in. Buddy up with someone of equal ability and share trail breaking. You have to be pretty strong, experienced winter hiker to break trail up any of the 4Ks alone. It's also surprising now a days just how fast trails get broken out, especially the popular ones. I think you'd do well with something like Tubbs Flex Alp. Great binding, lots of gripping power for those wind blow iced up sections and not bad in deeper powder. What ever you use don't forget to carry a repair kit to at least last long enough to get you back to the trail head. Stuff does break, know the weak spots on your shoes and be prepared.

I apologize if I missed it but I haven't seen anyone mention the extension floats that can be attached to the MSR Denalis or MSR Evo Ascents. The float sizes are 4", 6" (yup, just saw them on Amazon) and my favorite 8". They certainly add some "buoyancy" in the form of surface area but they do add weight as well. I have a pair of Denalis (original and discontinued) and the Evo Ascents. I absolutely love them.

The MSR Evo Ascents have Televators for steep incline ascents and a set of "fangs" in the aggressive rows of teeth. These two longer and wider teeth line up with the ball of your foot to provide excellent grip and minimize slippage on loose powder. I am not a fan of the MSR Lightnings due to the fact that the steel frame can crack and leave you with nothing solid to step upon when deep in the trail. Once the steel frame cracks there is usually no anchor for the crampons and the decking becomes useless.

Those are my two cents. I hope this helps.

Z

 

[DougPaul]

I apologize if I missed it but I haven't seen anyone mention the extension floats that can be attached to the MSR Denalis or MSR Evo Ascents. The float sizes are 4", 6" (yup, just saw them on Amazon) and my favorite 8". They certainly add some "buoyancy" in the form of surface area but they do add weight as well. I have a pair of Denalis (original and discontinued) and the Evo Ascents. I absolutely love them.

I have used extensions with my MSR Denalis. Yes they do increase the flotation, but since the binding location is fixed the extra flotation is aft of center of weight. This tends to result in tip dive.

(On the other hand, you want the binding close to the front of the snowshoe if you are kicking steps up a steep slope.)

This has been discussed at greater length in some previous threads.

FWIW, I like my Denalis for typical NE hiking. They have very good traction on sloping surfaces.

Doug

 

[summitseeker]

I have used extensions with my MSR Denalis. Yes they do increase the flotation, but since the binding location is fixed the extra flotation is aft of center of weight. This tends to result in tip dive.

(On the other hand, you want the binding close to the front of the snowshoe if you are kicking steps up a steep slope.)

This has been discussed at greater length in some previous threads.

FWIW, I like my Denalis for typical NE hiking. They have very good traction on sloping surfaces.

Doug

That's a very good point, DougPaul. The extension floats are not perfect but they do offer a workable solution to wanting more floatation without carrying a second set of snowshoes. I admit that even with the 8" floats I have sunk over two feet in heavy drifts but there is no one snowshoes that will cover all applications perfectly.

I forgot to mention that the traction rails do a great job of keeping you from lateral slipping on pitched trails, (those that run along inclines rather than up them). My wife's Atlas snowshoes slip at the tail and she often exerts a lot of energy trying to prevent loss of ground. My friends SteveR and HA LOVE their Atlas shoes, however. They are big fans to the deep aggressive crampons.

Z

 

[DougPaul]

That's a very good point, DougPaul. The extension floats are not perfect but they do offer a workable solution to wanting more floatation without carrying a second set of snowshoes. I admit that even with the 8" floats I have sunk over two feet in heavy drifts but there is no one snowshoes that will cover all applications perfectly.

The older Denali models offered the choice of 4" or 8" extensions, the newer models only offer a 6" extension.

In deep soft snow, anything will sink in deeply. XC/BC skis can be even worse--the tip slides under the snow and you have to laboriously pull it out on every step.

I forgot to mention that the traction rails do a great job of keeping you from lateral slipping on pitched trails, (those that run along inclines rather than up them). My wife's Atlas snowshoes slip at the tail and she often exerts a lot of energy trying to prevent loss of ground. My friends SteveR and HA LOVE their Atlas shoes, however. They are big fans to the deep aggressive crampons.

The MSR Denalis have superior traction both up/down and lateral. In the "good old days" we used to attach a broken shoe or instep crampon to our webbing snowshoes to give traction on crust. The MSRs are far better in this respect. (IMO, the only real downsides are noise on crust and the binding could be better. I have Howe bindings on my traditional snowshoes that I like better than the MSR bindings.)

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

The older Denalis also had a bigger toe hole. The Evos are impossible to work with my Columbia size 13s, so I went to the Flex Alp 24 (Tubbs) and they have more room for toe, a better binding system, and a bit more flex to help prevent breakage. They are still noisy on crust.

Tim

 

[TJsName]

I can second the Tubbs bindings. My size 14 Merrells fit in them nicely and it is super quick to tighten and undo. I borrowed my brothers MSR Lightnings and had a heck of a time getting then adjusted so they wouldn't come undone.

 

[Lawn Sale]

Size 13 and 14? Why do you need snowshoes at all?

The Atlas binding does throw some now on your calves at times, so it's something to take into consideration. It's the way the binding suspension reacts to the varying conditions. Not a problem most of the time but in fresh light powder you'd better be wearing gaiters. The rigid Tubbs binding does not do this, but it's much stiffer overall since it's a pivot point. That being said, I love the Atlas and see no reason whatsoever to even try anything else, but they are not for everyone.

I loved my old 1025's so much the wife bought me some new 1225's to shut me up (that and she loves me, and I bought her the 1227's to keep up with me). I've ditched most of my snowshoe stockpile now since I won't be needing them but I'm hanging onto the 36's and 30's for the new snow.

 

[DayTrip]

Thanks all. This is great information and does conflict with what I've read on other gear sites. With the vast amount of experience the users on this forum have I'm confident I know what I need to get now. I'm always suspicious of the reviews on EMS, REI and other main stream sites. You can tell by the reviews that many of the people do not use the gear like someone in the back country wood and often post reviews before they have even used the gear for its intended purpose. It's a starting point but rarely does it prove out to be overly useful.

Tim: I'm embarassed to ask but what the heck is that long lasagna noodle looking package you have in your winter gear photo with the snowshoes? Never seen those before.

 

[DayTrip]

Thanks all. This is great information and does conflict with what I've read on other gear sites. With the vast amount of experience the users on this forum have I'm confident I know what I need to get now. I'm always suspicious of the reviews on EMS, REI and other main stream sites. You can tell by the reviews that many of the people do not use the gear like someone in the back country wood and often post reviews before they have even used the gear for its intended purpose. It's a starting point but rarely does it prove out to be overly useful.

Tim: I'm embarassed to ask but what the heck is that long lasagna noodle looking package you have in your winter gear photo with the snowshoes? Never seen those before.

 

[TJsName]

Looks like part of a z-rest foam pad. Something to sit/kneel on without gettin wet I guess.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

It's a z-rest pad. If you/one of your companions is hurt, you're going to need something to insulate you from the snow & ice. In addition to one of those, I carry (year-round) a Blizzard emergency bag. If you search this site, you'll find multiple references to the bag. Tim Seaver introduced it to the board many years ago. It's used by the RAF, backcountry SAR/EMT's, and many others.

 

[summitseeker]

It's a z-rest pad. If you/one of your companions is hurt, you're going to need something to insulate you from the snow & ice. In addition to one of those, I carry (year-round) a Blizzard emergency bag. If you search this site, you'll find multiple references to the bag. Tim Seaver introduced it to the board many years ago. It's used by the RAF, backcountry SAR/EMT's, and many others.

Some people also opt for the smaller size Therm-a-Rest Z-Rest due to the fact it is slightly smaller and usually fits within the compression straps of many packs. I have run into a few people who take the regular size Z-Rest (the model with a shiny, heat reflecting side) and cut it in half. The idea behind this is less bulk and it provides a surface just big enough to sit or lay upon (fetal or recovery position).

A bivy sack and full size Z-Rest are two things that a serious group of winter hikers would probably want among the members. The discretion of those participating will determine the total number of bivy sacks and insulating pads among the group. Weather, stamina, conditioning, and experience are all factors that play a role in determining what supplies and emergency countermeasures should be taken.

You're right, this online community is full of knowledgable individuals who are more than willing to share their expertise and wisdom. The "Views" community was instrumental in helping me "get up to speed" this winter. VFTT is an invaluable resource.

Thank you all,

Z

 

[hikerbrian]

To follow up with a little more info on your questions:

Also, ice axe(s)? Most "beginner" winter climbing sites list this as a must have item but I rarely see it mentioned on sites with more experienced climbers. I generally have my hiking poles with snow baskets. Is an ice axe really just for technical climbs? I don't see it's use in a normal hike but I am new to this. Thoughts?

As others have mentioned, there are two different beasts: technical ice tools are used for ice climbing. These tools look very aggressive, sometimes have curved shafts, often have a pinky rest, etc. A mountaineering axe (straight shaft, light weight, less aggressive looking) is useful on steep snow, but not technical ice. These are generalizations and there is overlap. In any case, an ice axe isn't needed by a beginner - it's use is reserved for steep terrain, where in the event of a fall you could pick up considerable speed, launch over a cliff, slam into rocks, and other outcomes that you'd really rather avoid. In these situations, a mountaineering ice axe can be used to provide additional stability in order to PREVENT a fall (this is called self-belaying), and it can be used to stop you from sliding, if you do fall (this is called self-arrest). But again, until you start exploring steep terrain where a fall will have serious consequences, an ice axe is not necessary.

One last question: how do you keep your goggles from fogging and freezing? The day I did Cannon it was about -12 deg F (before windchill). I was sweating during the climb so as soon as I cleared the trees and put my goggles on they fogged and froze in about 10 seconds. Switched to my Oakley's.....ditto. I was putting them on for the brightness (crystal clear skies) more than anything so I got by without them but I couldn't help but think what would happen if I'd been well above treeline and it was a white out or snowing. How do you keep your goggle clear and see where you're going???

As others have said, this can be difficult. Best solutions, in my opinion: 1. moderate your pace so you're not sweating; 2. carry at least 2 pairs of goggles. They don't weigh much and don't cost much (the cheapos, anyway, which are what I'd recommend as they get shoved in your pack and scratched pretty quickly, no matter how expensive they are). And 3. I've had pretty decent luck with the Smith No Fog cloth.

Believe it or not, fogged goggles is a potentially serious problem. With two pairs, at least you can wear one pair while you're working to clear the ice out of the other. Which will probably leave some scratches and you'll be happy you bought the cheap pair...