What does one do...?

[dvbl]

The recent post by McRat got me thinking about ill-behaved people in the mountains. He told the story about three guys throwing large rocks off the summit of Eisenhower (I don't know how to link previous posts). I'm not talking about people who walk on the fragile plants because they just don't know any better, or the loud cell-phone jockeys. Those and similar things can be easily addressed or easily ignored. I'm talking about real good-ole, down-home, red-blooded obnoxious behavior. Like throwing large stones from the summit of Eisenhower, for example. If I had been in McRat's position I don't know what I would've done. I would like to think I would have told them to stop. What if I had, and they told me to screw. What then? It's not like I can call the cops and they'll be there in 10 minutes. And if it's three against one, or three against two, and there's a significant size differential, then pointing a finger in their faces probably won't end well. Easy to say, "Well, I would've done x, y, and z." But you don't know until you're there.

Last month there were three guys on one of the tent platforms near mine. They were drunk, and they were being much too loud considering it was about 9:30pm. They appeared to be over the age of 25, and yet the conversation was about nothing but beer. "I carried the beer last time...yeah but that was only a 12-rack...I don't care if I forget the tent, as long as I don't forget my 12-rack...blah blah blah." Jeesh, at what age do you stop giggling about how drunk you're gonna get next weekend. The caretaker came over once and told them very nicely, "Hey guys, lots of people here are waking up in about 8 hours and your voices are carrying very far and loud in the woods." They quieted down for about 5 minutes and then went right back at it. This continued for about an hour longer, and I gave myself a limit of 11PM. If they were still at it at 11PM, I was going to go over and say something. Fortunately it didn't have to come to that, as I fell asleep before that. BTW, I wear earplugs and they were still keeping me up. The caretaker tried once, but they pretty much blew him off. what could he do at that point? Could he boot them out at 10:30 at night? What's the rule in this case? What if I had said something and in addition to being obnoxious drunks they also turned out to be violent drunks?
Then what?

 

[onestep]

A long time ago I ran into a similar situation at Blackwoods Campground in Acadia National Park. We had two tents set up on our campsite. The party next door went on till all hours of the night. My ex-sister in law couldn't stand it any longer and started yelling at them to shut up! It did no good.

The next evening we arrived back at our campsite to find only 1 tent!... the party site was empty.

Onestep

 

[DougPaul]

A long time ago I ran into a similar situation at Blackwoods Campground in Acadia National Park. We had two tents set up on our campsite. The party next door went on till all hours of the night. My ex-sister in law couldn't stand it any longer and started yelling at them to shut up! It did no good.

The next evening we arrived back at our campsite to find only 1 tent!... the party site was empty.

Of course, someone else could have taken the tent too...

FWIW, national park rangers are federal officers with a range of police powers. So if it is really serious...

Doug

 

[BorealChickadee]

WEll...

One time years ago in Baxter when a bunch of drunk locals came and took the empty lean to next to us in the middle of the night it took a 6 cell Mag lite shoved in their leanto to shut them up. conincidentally at the exact same time my two year old daughter let out a single piercing wail-don't know if it was the light or the toddler scream that scared them more. they were gone when we woke up. The upper gate ranger was pretty sure who they were.

A few years ago I decided to take a state campground site during the July 4th week, but at a site known as being quite quiet. Brown's Tract. We were off by ourselves along the pond and a group of teenagers came in at the next site at least 100 feet through the woods. They were drinking and one came over to use our outhouse and I directed the red eyed young man to his own. They partied until all hours keeping me up. In the morning I was highly p*ss*d. I told the caretaker and she immediately radioed for the forest rangers. She said I should have come during the night amd woken her up-I didn't drive down during the night because I didn't want to leave my son alone ( a good 15 minute walk at a least, we are at a far site). ....Two rangers came...the oldest teen was 16...no adults ..an uncle who was a retired caretaker had registered them and then left...they pulled their drunken throwing up bodies out of the tent, made them pack, wrote them up, I had to sign a complaint, called the uncle and sent them packing--and we slept peacefully the next night. The end.

 

[Robertjohkn]

These stories are the reason I hike futher into the woods to find spots to camp away from the other hikers.

 

[snowbird22]

The recent post by McRat got me thinking about ill-behaved people in the mountains. He told the story about three guys throwing large rocks off the summit of Eisenhower (I don't know how to link previous posts). I'm not talking about people who walk on the fragile plants because they just don't know any better, or the loud cell-phone jockeys. Those and similar things can be easily addressed or easily ignored. I'm talking about real good-ole, down-home, red-blooded obnoxious behavior. Like throwing large stones from the summit of Eisenhower, for example. If I had been in McRat's position I don't know what I would've done. I would like to think I would have told them to stop. What if I had, and they told me to screw. What then? It's not like I can call the cops and they'll be there in 10 minutes. And if it's three against one, or three against two, and there's a significant size differential, then pointing a finger in their faces probably won't end well. Easy to say, "Well, I would've done x, y, and z." But you don't know until you're there.

You could dress up as a Yeti ( Bigfoot ) You'd really scare them away if attacked the tent at night. Just make sure you wear a really good bullet proof vest just in case

 

[timmus]

Two years ago I was camping in Banff, and the two guys next to us were 30-something and totally drunk all the time. They spent the evening spraying liquid fire starter in their fire, making the flames go up to 6 feet tall. The next day we came back from hiking and they were still doing the same thing, all evening long The last thing you want when camping is two drunk pyromaniacs next to your tent site !

But the worst behavior I saw while hiking is definitely that couple last year driving golf balls from the Mount Washington summit... All I told them was ''Do you guys know that there is hikers down there, and you can kill them ?'' They laugh, I didn't insist. Reasoning doesn't do it for the idiotic ones.

 

[Grumpy]

Easy does it ...

In the rock throwing situation I’d probably say something like, “hey guys, throwing rocks off here really isn’t a very good idea because …” and then cite some credible reason, like potential for injury to folks below who you don’t know are there, or even the defacement issue. It would be tough, but I’d make a conscious effort to be firm about my statement without being preachy or sounding too authoritarian. The idea is to get ‘em to quit and not escalate the incident.

If I got told to buzz off, I’d probably make one more easy-going effort to appeal to the better parts of their nature before buzzing off. A lot depends on the level of hostility I encounter. No sense in getting all riled and biled up in a fierce confrontation I’m not likely to win. But there’s no sense either in not giving it some low-key semblance of the old college try if it’s important enough for me have said something in the first place. This is a real judgement call. Might report the incident to ranger or other authority later, as opportunity presents itself.

Key thing, I suppose, is to differentiate between what’s worth making a real issue of and what is just a petty annoyance for me. Some stuff, like, say, careless playing with or handling fire might really be worth going to the mat over; being irked by somebody who’s just a noisy (and obnoxious) but otherwise harmless drunk well might not be worth much at all in the way of confrontation.

G.

 

[SLB]

Bear Spray works great !

"To Alcohol: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems !" - Homer Simpson

http://www.frogstar.com/wav/tv-the-simpsons.asp
http://www.tastybrew.com/humor/quotes.html

 

[DougPaul]

Bear Spray works great !

Except that you could be charged with assault for using it on another human.

Doug

 

[--M.]

Mill, Kant, Jesus, Pooh, and COPS.

I've rarely seen one of these confrontations go well, except where the aggrieved are so good with the humor thing that they can defuse anything coming back the other way.

The other part of me also says that one has to be one's self and if that means hauling off and yelling, then so be it. But there're consequences to that, too.

I really try to let live on these, right up until my righteous self has had enough. Then, however, it really takes a calm mind not to escalate a bad situation.

In the end, I think motivation is the key. As long as I'm not trying to win an argument, MAYBE there's a justification for calling others on their behavior. Otherwise, it's grin-&-bear-it time.

Mill & Kant tell us to use the cops. Pooh says go with the flow & try to chill. Rambo says burn the place down. Hike yer own hike, right?

--M.

 

[Artex]

In the case of the Ike rock throwers, one possible way to deal with the situation would be to take their pictures first, and then inform them you have done so and you'll be turning over said images to the rangers.

I'd think that'd be enough to scare someone but then again, you are dealing with illogical knuckleheads and they might not care.

 

[DougPaul]

In the case of the Ike rock throwers, one possible way to deal with the situation would be to take their pictures first, and then inform them you have done so and you'll be turning over said images to the rangers.

I'd think that'd be enough to scare someone but then again, you are dealing with illogical knuckleheads and they might not care.

Or they might simply steal your camera...

Doug

 

[forestgnome]

In the case of the rock throwers, I would go right up to them and explain that there are paths below with other people and a rock could kill someone. This is an actual life-threatening situation. I'd say it forcibly, but in a way that allows them to save face. I don't believe in being a sheep when someone's behavior is dangerous to others.

Otherwise, yet another thread that reminds me why I would never, ever camp in a hut or shelter or platforms, i.e. places where strangers could ruin the tranquility of the forest, when there are so many nice, quiet places to camp.

Happy Trails

 

[Grumpy]

In the case of the Ike rock throwers, one possible way to deal with the situation would be to take their pictures first, and then inform them you have done so and you'll be turning over said images to the rangers.

I'd think that'd be enough to scare someone but then again, you are dealing with illogical knuckleheads and they might not care.

Gotta say a couple things about this.

First, I don't think its a good assumption that because someone happens to be acting in a way that I know is dumb, foolish or wrong that he/she is an "illogical knucklehead." Might just be uninformed or inexperienced: naieve. Or, perhaps, insensitive. You won't know if you're dealing with an illogical knucklehead until they've been given an opportunity to (a) wise up and (b) correct their behavior. This may require a deft touch on your part.

If you're a sledgehammer kind of person in your approach, even otherwise sensible sorts may react badly and put up considerable resistance. (That probably would be me, by the way, if you came on too strong.) Important thing is to give the other guy a decent chance to demonstrate good will.

-----------------------------

To illustrate, I'll tell a short(ish) tale.

One day I stopped by a trailside leanto for a break and bite of lunch. The shelter obviously was occupied, with the usual array of gear stashed inside. But nobody was home. I plunked my tush down on the front riser.

As I sat munching my sandwich a fellow appeared, and immediately notified me that he and some buddies already occupied the leanto. "I knew somebody was camped here," I said. "I'm just passing through and taking a little lunch break here. I plan to be leaving shortly."

"You can't stay here," my conversational friend intoned without acknowledging my comment. "The leanto is occupied."

So I repeated: "I know ... just passing through ... plan to leave shortly."

"You have to leave," was the response.

About third time through, I was getting fed up with what seemed to me like a very unsatisfactory conversation. It was messing up my otherwise pleasant luncheon.

"Nah, I think I'll stick around a bit," I said. "Maybe take a little snooze while lunch settles. Rules say I'm entitled, you know."

And so I just sat, sipping at my water bottle, munching a little trail mix, making a few notes in my journal, reading a few pages in the guidebook, going over the map, fiddling with my camera -- anything to while away another hour or so while the other guy fumed and fussed and muttered and made snide remarks.

"Y'know," I said when I finally shouldered my pack and started hiking down the trail, "I most likely would have left 45 minutes or an hour ago if you'd been cordial. Why, we might even have had a nice conversation since we're obviously both interested in the mountains hereabouts. Have a nice day."

And I meant it. Even though annoying the daylights out of that jerk gave me considerable pleasure.

------------------

Second, I don't believe it is a good idea to threaten, particularly in situations like those under discussion here. (Think about how you react and respond to threats.) So, if your game is to notify the authorities of misbehavior, best to just quietly do, without announcement or making a big deal over it.

G.

 

[Jaytrek57]

Second, I don't believe it is a good idea to threaten, particularly in situations like those under discussion here. (Think about how you reaact and respond to threats.) So, if your game is to notify the authorities of misbehavior, best to just quietly do, without announcement or making a big deal over it.

Excellent point.

Ever see a person back down after the phrase, "I'll call the police, rangers."? If anything it makes the situation worse.

Soft skills, the ability to present a reasonable case on why the particular behavior is not appropriate, in a calm manner, goes a long way.

With drunks, I usually pull bluffs.

"Hey, guys, I think the ranger is in the area, just saw him, just wanted to give you the heads up since it is after 10:00pm."

Rock throwers:

"Hey, I think you might of hit somebody." This usually makes people (kids) think about their actions.

Peace.

 

[the starchild]

Or they might simply steal your camera...

Doug

maybe not if you had a gun? or knife? or pepper spray? or training? or any of the other objects discussed in the personal safety thread:

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13209&highlight=protection

regarding the summit rock throwing or golfing;
being hostile and confrontational would likely escalate the situation and not be a good idea. being passive and doing nothing would make for a poor backcountry citizen.

i really like the idea of taking a photo, then letting the people know there is a trail below and someone could get hurt or worse. let them save face, maybe they just didn't realize what they were doing.
Be firm and more concerned about someone getting injured from their actions rather than criticizing and berating them for their actions. lots of people do not like being told what to do by some stranger passing by, but....most people would not continue to do something that could cause harm on others if they knew the consequences of their actions.

if that all fails, i'd mention the photo as a last resort, and certainly follow through with the rangers if they continue their actions or give you any trouble.

cheers,

 

[McRat]

I've gone back and forth on this. Usually I have no shortage of words, but when I saw that - it was stunning in the original sense of the word.

I happened to have good luck being rude. I figured between Den and I we had a 12'-6" 520lb giant for them to deal with. Not that we didn't scurry out of a stones throw from the summit in case they resumed.

I wished I had some clever and illuminating way of dealing with it, but having someone question your mental faculties does encourage you to examine what exactly you were doing to cause the statement.

------
When I had my camping-next-to-drunks experience, I think I handled it better.

All night long they partied like only the underage can, with their car stereo playing the whole time. By 2am I had had enough. I got out of my tent and the scene looked like Jonestown - people passed out in odd positions all around the campfire. I went to the last people still stirring and said, "Hi, I'm camped next to you, and since everyone is asleep could you turn down the radio?"

"Oh yeah, what are you going to do about it?" they said as they swaggered over, limbhic systems awash in ethanol.

"You see these?" I looked at them and pointed to my feet. "These are my ass-kickin' boots"

As they started to process this, I turned around and walked back to my tent 'kicking' my own ass with my heels on each step. If I got stuck with the radio, at least I might be avoiding a fight.

They started laughing and turned off the radio.

-----
I think by the time I hit Ike I was too hot, tired, and baffled to have a good response. Hopefully they figured out how reckless it was when they saw us decend the loop trail right where they were throwing rocks.

 

[Maddy]

First I would casually take photos pretending I was trying to capture lots of scenery. Then I would strike up a conversation about where they had hiked from and try to get as much info as I could about their plans.You really can get a lot out of people with just casual conversation.
I would be very friendly and wish them well. I would then hike away and as soon as I could (using my cell phone)I would notify the NH state police. Hopefully I would be able to relate a description of their vehicle and where it is parked. I suspect that under the cirsumstances if you gave the police reliable info there just might we a welcoming committee waiting for them as they finished their hike. You would also have the pics to give to the officers.
What comes to mind is an experience I had at Killington ski area.
There was a problem with a few skiers and low and behold when they made their final turns down at the base they skied right into the arms of the VT State Police.
I would never tell someone I took their photo with the intention of giving it to the police. I fear that my body might be the next"rock" to be airborne off the summit.
I think the idea of having a chat with them about their actions is nice but if they become hostile and even more aggressive you might be endagering yourself and possibly a hiking companion. Personally I would rather not take that risk.

 

[Chip]

MAN, a few of us did Adams and Jefferson via King Ravine and Castle in mid-April. After driving up from CT that morning and a nice long hike we camped at Barnes Field. There was this one group there, right in the middle of the place - they must've had 10 tents and as many cars, big old camp fire, grills going, drinking, laughing, someone had some FREAK music playing on their car stereo, I went up to them and, oh, wait, that was us. It was a VFTT gathering, never mind.