What makes a quality knife ? Metallurgy, Advertising, the Sharpener ?

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Chip

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Knives are weird. You can spend $3 or $300 on one that looks the same as the other.
Like most boys and outdoors people I love a good looking knife, but I'm about 30 years past the "Ego" part of the purchase.
We bought a relatively expensive Cutco kitchen set 12 years ago from my niece and they're nice, but the best thing is that we can send them back to be replaced or sharpened.
I'm not really sure the actual engineering or properties of the knives are special.

I know there're different metals and ways to grind the edge. Anyone know what really makes a $300 knife worth it ? Thanks.
 
Knives are weird. You can spend $3 or $300 on one that looks the same as the other.
Like most boys and outdoors people I love a good looking knife, but I'm about 30 years past the "Ego" part of the purchase.
We bought a relatively expensive Cutco kitchen set 12 years ago from my niece and they're nice, but the best thing is that we can send them back to be replaced or sharpened.
I'm not really sure the actual engineering or properties of the knives are special.

I know there're different metals and ways to grind the edge. Anyone know what really makes a $300 knife worth it ? Thanks.

Chip, it's a huge subject and fascinating. I'll try to be brief so feel to ask follow ups.

Short version, to paraphrase Pirsig, a quality knife is one that gives you peace of mind.

More concretely, the knife should do the tasks you need it to do and should make you happy when doing it. Form follows function so the first step is to get specific about what you want to do that might need a knife. Ultralight backpacking, every day carry (EDC), general outdoor use, woodcraft/bushcraft, hunting, working in the trades... all of these put different demands on a knife.

Not knowing what you want to do and thinking that you might not want to read a long post by a knife knut, I'll just make some specific recommendations right up front. For ultra lite hiking, I like the Leatherman PS2 Squirt. Handles most repair jobs and 1st aid needs just fine. If you need a larger knife for food preparation, I would recommend either the Opinel #8 Inox Stainless (or #9 if you have big hands like me) or the Ontario Rat 2. If you feel you need a fixed blade, I would recommend the Mora Companion Stainless version. None of these knives will cost more than $30 and all are very solid knives.

But, you asked about $300 knives so now we get into more details...

Fit & Finish - Knives can be works of functional art that you can carry with you. As you move up in price, you start getting into either custom made or super high tollerance manufacturing. I like inexpensive but high quality knives and I drive a Subaru. But I don't begrudge people for liking their Lexus quality knives. Here is a video comparing a $300 Bark River knife to a $20 Mora.
http://youtu.be/sLlxWbce4iE

Blade Grind - Refers to the shape of the blade in its cross section. This has nothing to do with quality but has everything to do with matching the design to the task. Here's a primer. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind#Typical_grinds

Hollow grinds are popular for hunting since the super thin edge cuts meat well since the meat self seperates. Scandi or Sabre grinds are popular for bushcrafting since they split wood well when you baton. Convex grinds are popular among some bushcrafters. Flat grind slice vegetables well and many consider them to be the best all around shape. I strongly prefer convex ground blades (Opinel) but like flat just fine too. I like sabre grinds ok but usually convex them for better wood working. I don't like hollow grinds at all except for hunting knives.

Lock and Joints - A folding knife is tricky. IMO, any folding knife will close at the worst possible instant. I never fully trust a folding knife and won't pry with them. I'm much more interested that a knife won't develop vertical or lateral play under hard cutting. I like lock back designs for hunting or casual EDC but I find they develop play under hard use. I can live with liner locks or frame locks but never rely on them staying open. The Opinel is among the toughest folder I've ever used. Traditional slip joints and lockbacks that rely on peened pins are beautiful but can develop lateral play.

Steel - We could talk for hours and hours about steel. I'm going to very, very crudely summarize and say there are basically 2 kinds of steel. Fine carbide steels are sort of like cement made with sand. Large carbide steel are sort of like concrete with big bits of hard gravel in them. Large carbide steels are very abrasion resistant so the edge lasts a long time. In essence, the big carbides are rough and keep cutting well as the edges wears, especially in fibruous materials like rope. The downside is that large carbide steels can be harder to sharpen, unless you know how to sharpen and have really good stones. Fine carbide steels are generally very tough (they don't chip when abused), take a very keen edge and are easier to sharpen (especially when starting out).

For starting, I would recommend sticking with fine carbide steels. They include (among others): carbon steel/1095, carbon CV, 420HC stainless, 440A stainless, Aus 6 and Aus 8, Sandvik 12C27 (Opinel, Mora).

The other thing to know about steel is that it must be tempered, or heat treated, by the knife maker. Knife makers get "raw" steel from the manufacturer, cut it and shape it and then do their heat treat. Generally harder is better in terms of heat treatment but this depends entirely on the knife maker, not the steel. For example, Case and Buck both use 420HC and Buck does a much better job heat treating it. The knives I recommended above all do a great job with their heat treat.

The newer high carbide steels get very expensive very fast. Are they better? Not if you can't sharpen them they aren't.

Sharpening - There is sharpening and then there is sharpening. If you've not sharpened before, my recommendation is to get a Lansky guided rod system. If you plan on getting expensive steels, get the diamon hones. This will teach you how to raise a burr, which is the secret to sharpening. Once you get the hang of it, you can touch up blades with a pocket stone, like the DMT credit card stone in medium or fine. Do the heavy sharpening on teh Lansky. An alternative to the pocket stone for quick touch ups is something like the Spyderco Sharpmaker but this makes more sense to me for people like Chefs.

FWIW, this is what I carry when hiking...
Outdoor Carry by Pinnah, on Flickr
 
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images.jpg

My vote is for the Gerber River Runner. I attach it to my pack strap and is set up for quick access. It has a single multi-function blade that has saved my butt a few times.

Tuck
 
I carried a Shrade fixed Blade for 25 yrs, faux stag handle, know as the "Golden Spike cost 20 bucks. I threw it into about 10,000 trees, played 1000's of games of stretch and mumily peg and it never failed me. 3 yrs ago I paid 180 bucks for a fixed blade and didnt like it at all, it was to big and heavy. I've sinced compromised and use a smaller fixed blade made from Mueller, came in at 90 bucks, it is perfect for me, I love the Stag handle and the 4 inch blade is more then adequate. Plus its 440 stainless, which I consider essential for an outdoors knife.
 
Knife_BokerStagHandle.jpg

Boker Stag

This is my favorite knife I like to bring with me when I'm outdoors. Sadly, I have seldom really 'needed' a knife when outdoors. :) I like to think I do. FWIW I don't like folding knives. For blade length - anything below 3 inches seems too small for me but as I said I don't really need a knife to begin with. :) Anything over 5 inches blade length seems too long for me.

I used to have a micro blade from CRKT minimalist tiny knife and I loved it. YMMW
2385_xlarge_65.jpg
 
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What pinnah said. 'Cept friends don't let friends carry French knives into the woods :rolleyes: ;) :

Having worked on too many French bikes in the 70s and 80s, I admit that I used to be biased against the idea of French engineering.

The Opinel has won me over, in no small measure by the great job they do heat treating the Swedish Sandvik 12C27 steel that they use for their "Inox". It's wonderful stuff. They get the Rc up to 58. And the blade joint is tough as nails. And add to that the great convex blade geometry.

I keep hoping that somebody in Scandinavia or Germany will drop a convex (or thin scandi, I have stones and round them out) blade made out of 12C27 into a German wooden sodbuster frame. Most of the German sodbusters are no-name stainless and most Scandinavian folders just don't do it for me. For under $20, the Opinel gets pretty much everything right, so long as you can learn to waterproof the joint.

Chip, before this thread gets out of hand with folks telling you to buy the knife they themselves own, you might clarify what you're looking to do with a knife.
 
Chip, before this thread gets out of hand with folks telling you to buy the knife they themselves own, you might clarify what you're looking to do with a knife.

Thanks. Lots of great info. I owe you a couple beers.

I'm primarily interested in being able to keep the knives I currently own ASAP (As Sharp As Possible) for processing meat myself.
I own one large set of various Cutco knives and a couple other sets of cheaper knives. I've never needed to kill and process anything whilst backpacking, so backpacking is a utility type knife need, which I have a variety of.
The Cutcos are 440A high-carbon stainless steel, hollow ground. It seems to me there's a limited number of times an amateur could sharpen a knife with a special grind before it had to go back to a pro.

So, if you'd care to comment further, I guess that's what I need to know: What can a casual observer do locally for the various grinds before the knife is ruined or it needs to be sent back.

Thanks again.
 
Chip,

If you want to go deep, I'd recommend heading to bladeforums.com and pointing your browser to the maintenance sub-forum. Be warned, for many, sharpening is a sport in and of itself with silly extremes.

Here is my take...

440A is a fine carbide stainless. How it performs will depend entirely on Cutco's heat treatment, which I have no idea about. I have several old Schrade USA knives with 440A (labeled Schrade +) that are tempered in the 58Rc range that are excellent. But, if Cutco's temper is softer you might encounter 2 things. First, the edge might roll if you use too small of an edge angle with it. Second, you might find the blade produces a stubburn "wire edge" burr when you sharpen it. Older Victorinox Inox and Case Tru-Sharp are both this way. Both issues can dealt with, so have heart.

My strongest recommendation would be to get a Lansky guided rod sharpening system. For me, they were like training wheels. They eliminate variables and allowed me to focus on the stone and blade and this is how I finally figured out how to raise a burr and then hone an edge.

Sharpening 101 - To create a new apex, you need to remove metal from both sides to form a new, clean 'V'. When you sharpen, you create a burr on the leading edge, much like snow piles up in front of a snow shovel. You feel for this by running your thumb over the edge from the other side. If it catches on your finger print, you've raised a burr. You test the blade along the full length. Sharpen one side till you raise a burr. Then sharpen on the other side till you raise a burr. You do this with a course stone. Then you repeat moving towards finer stones. On the last stone, you use light pressure to remove the burr without raising a new burr. Some stainless like 440A or 420HC when soft will create new burrs (aka wire edges) when you look at them crossly. Light touch is needed.

Hollow grinds are ideal for meat processing!! They tend to be very thin just behind the edge and meat pulls away from the shoulder of the grind near the spine. Hollow grind bind cutting potatoes as the shoulder hits the potato.

On some knives, you need to thin the blade behind the apex. It's common to put on a "back bevel" at a lower angle (like 15 degrees) and a steeper cutting bevel (like 20 degrees). Hollow grinds sort of have this built into them, which is why they are so easy to touch up on a rod or pocket stone. For hard steels, I use a 15 degree back bevel and 20 apex. For softer steels, I use a 20 degree back bevel and a 25 degree apex.

A system like the Lansky takes any of the mystery of what I'm saying right out. Very easy. I'm a knuckle head and the Lansky fixed me.

I use my Lansky to repair very dull blades and use a pocket stone for quick touch ups. I found that as I gained experience with the Lansky, I got much better at tune ups free hand.

You can easily sharpen 440A with the non-diamond basic stone set. The basic kit sells for about $35 US and has 3 stones. It's fool proof, as I can attest to. It takes me less than a beer to sharpen a dull 440A blade.

(Oh, clean the stones with water, not oil.)

I'm happy to talk about this for like hours and hours. Ask anything. It's a wonderfully fun topic.
 
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A couple of other considerations (though admittedly, I am not operating on the level of obsession that others in this post operate):
1. Full tang (this is the extension of the blade metal through the entire handle of the knife - a full tang is more durable than a partial tang)
2. Rivet material (what holds the tang to the handle) - should be very durable
3. Handle material - you want a combination of heat and stain resistance, durability, and easy sanitation (no joints for organic material to get into).
4. Design of handle - from an ergonomics standpoint, you want the knife to feel good in your hand for whatever task you're using it for. Does the knife fit securely in your hand when you are cutting or slicing or whatever, or does it tilt sideways in your hand or out of your hand?
5. Balance - related to above - when you hold the knife, does it feel good in your hand, or is the blade too heavy/handle too small, etc?

As others have mentioned, the metal used matters a lot. Hi carbon steel is very strong and holds an edge well but tends to tarnish. Stainless steel is softer and easier to sharpen, but the edge does not last as long. My understanding is 440A is a "best of both worlds" alloy that treads a middle ground.
 
Nothing to do with $300 knives, but for hiking and backpacking, I prefer a folding knife. The shorter length makes it much more convenient: easy to add to the list of "things that are in my pack on every trip."

For folding knives, it's *very* important that the folding & locking mechanisms be reliable. There are only a few things worse than stabbing yourself when you reach into your backpack. One of them is never knowing whether crucial gear (like rope) is going to emerge from your backpack in one piece. Another is losing a couple of fingers because your knife suddenly folded while you were gripping it.

I haven't carried an Opinel in decades, but in my memory they were extremely dangerous - to the person holding one. When folded, the only thing keeping the blade closed is contact with the wooden handle - which can shrink with changes in humidity. When open, the locking ring can easily work loose and allow the blade to suddenly fold.
 
Nothing to do with $300 knives, but for hiking and backpacking, I prefer a folding knife. The shorter length makes it much more convenient: easy to add to the list of "things that are in my pack on every trip."

For folding knives, it's *very* important that the folding & locking mechanisms be reliable. There are only a few things worse than stabbing yourself when you reach into your backpack. One of them is never knowing whether crucial gear (like rope) is going to emerge from your backpack in one piece. Another is losing a couple of fingers because your knife suddenly folded while you were gripping it.

I haven't carried an Opinel in decades, but in my memory they were extremely dangerous - to the person holding one. When folded, the only thing keeping the blade closed is contact with the wooden handle - which can shrink with changes in humidity. When open, the locking ring can easily work loose and allow the blade to suddenly fold.

I am also a fan of a solid, reliable, and well built folding knife for most hiking related applications.

There is a lengthy thread on this subject in the archives, but I will re-state my personal favorite at the risk of redundancy.

The Buck Lite series is a line I find both economical and reliable: They are lifetime warrantied and made in the USA
http://www.buckknives.com/product/folding-bucklite-max-medium-knife/0482FAM01/

It doesn't "snap" open like my well-worn gerber but I can open it one-handed fast enough for my needs. FWIW


Z :D
 
IMO, Opinels are very safe but they are somewhat finicky and demand some amount of user tuning to work well. The newer ones (since 70s) have a different lock which locks the blade closed. The thing about the Opinel is how tough the joint is. It's able to be used very hard without being damaged. They are also very tolerant of dirt and sand, which won't wreck the joint or lock. Again, never rely on the lock to prevent closure. It's more like a slip joint in that way.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28597626/tuning-opinels.txt

I really dig Buck lockbacks and often carry a Buck 500, among others. But, both Bucklites and my Ecolite failed to last more than a year. I'm hard on knives but they really wore out quick. The full metal lockbacks are more durable but really, any lockback will wear out under heavy cutting like limbs and brush. Better for hunting and meat processing like Chip is asking about. IMO, the Buck Vantage is a better hard cutting design.

End of the day, a knife should make you happy to have it.
 
440A is a fine carbide stainless. How it performs will depend entirely on Cutco's heat treatment, which I have no idea about.

"Cutco uses a three step heat-treating process: 1) Heat treating in the belt furnace, 2) Cryogenic (deep freeze), 3) Draw temper in walk-in oven."

My normal "going out" knife is a Buck 290 locking and a small Swiss Army.
I ordered a couple of the Lansky products. Some overlap, but should be good.
Thanks again.
 
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