When to share, and when not to......

[mavs00]

Just a philosophical question, that occasionally comes up for me. With the advent of this far-reaching medium (the net) and places like this site, how much information is too much?????????

For instance, many whackers tightly hold routes/hikes sacred and wouldn't even share them with their own mothers if it came down to it . Others will share among a tight knit group of people they trust, and still others will post the information freely on the Trail Conditions/Trip reports.

Obviously, it's a personal choice and not really a matter of right and wrong, just your own personal feelings on the matter. I mean, obviously, some sharing of information is crucial for the "gaining of knowledge" for the burgeoning generation of whackers (like me), but too much sharing invites unwanted traffic on special places.

I'm curious to know how you all feel. For me, I see the value and logic on both sides. Knowledge of others is what has allowed me visit some special places/routes in the past. But, on the other hand, too many visits (too much information) may spoil a place.

I consider myself bushwhacker friendly. I may tell say "Hey, I went to this cool place" (or even show a picture or two), but it stops there. My mindset is that, a true whacker will do their own homework on routes and WILL NOT NEED specific guidance from me to get there. If they wanna get there that bad, they will. I would only share SPECIFIC DATA (like GPS plots) among tight group of people I trust. Same thing with whack routes up peaks or from place to place. I might tell people, "there is a doable route this way or that way", but ACTUAL DATA would be help to a "my small comfortable group".

It's my believe that this approach weeds out 99% of people WILLING to attempt a route or place. In other words, there are a TON of people that SAY, I 'd love to traverse between Redfield and say, Allen, but a significant smaller group of those that would actually "risk their skin" to try it.

Feel free to chime in, I'm curious to here what you all think.

 

[Peakbagr]

I feel comfortable sharing almost any WINTER route on peaks in the ADKs or Catskills.

The Adirondacks because its tough to do damage with so much snow under you, and because the snow covers so much blowdown and thick stuff hidden feet below you. Most folks assume its completely different come Spring and are apt not to repeat it. The only exception is a route where I know the woods are open and its liable to get more traffic if lots of people "discover" it.

In the Catskills, there is far less traffic and less high elevation terrain to be damaged. Also, with deciduous forest covering much of the mountains, virtually any route that looks good on a map works out in the field. Even if publicized, only a few will repeat it, and the next ridge, drainage, or streamcourse over will work just as well.

For peaks that involve crossing private land, I am reluctant to share either the route or the fact we did it. At most, just comments about the peak and that permission is needed to get to it.

I agree with Tim about route sharing your "secrets". I have a small group of friends where I'm comfortable sharing any intelligence as they will safeguard it and they know I will also.

The internet is a great thing as respects communication. Before hiking Boards sprung up, the word-of-mouth was just that. The few who were interested in bushwacking didn't have to worry about information getting out too quickly or too broadly. Just a few years ago you wouldn't have to worry about the unskilled ransacking a fragile route as they would have been out of the loop and never learned about it.
With the wide variety of ethics, knowledge, and skilllevels, getting too specific with "gems" could ruin these routes very quickly. One only has to look at the herd paths, flagging, and brush-cutting next to what used to be some obscure slides or routes to see what can happen.
This is a great thread Tim started. I don't feel protecting these is elitist, its just that thousands can quickly learn about something and if only a small percentage give it a try.....

 

[mavs00]

I'd only like to add that "within your own circle of trust", trusted people may advise to you that others (that they know, and that they ARE COMFORTABLE with) are okay to SHARE WITH. BE VERY WARY. Trust your own judgement only.

Share only with those that you have met and feel comfortable with. That way you will feel that any information shared, is with someone you can really trust. This is a lesson that was only recently learned.

Perhaps not sharing is that way to go

 

[Periwinkle]

Perhaps not sharing is that way to go

I have to agree with you on that.

After a particular discovery this year, I gave a good deal of thought to this subject, including consulting a respected member of this board, and came to the conclusion that it would be inadvisable and somewhat irresponsible to share such information indiscriminately.

Whacks, herd paths, bootleg trails, etc. are not intended for the masses. They are not marked, maintained or designed for that level of use.

I also agree that one should only share with the trusted few. Heck, I'll tell you my life story, but unless I respect you, your ability, and your backcountry ethics, I'm not sharing.

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

My two cents in a New England context (I believe that NYers have different approaches to this topic):

I happily share information on routes to peaks on the New England 100 Highest list. The Four Thousand Footer Committee has long published information on routes to peaks on their lists (remember, when the lists were started many 4,000 footers did not have trails).

I am willing to share information on "well known" unofficially maintained trails, though I realize the issue is rather complex. As I have previously noted, some such trails (old Osseo, Firewarden's) are well known to the Forest Service and are clearly tolerated, if not fully accepted.

I am more guarded when it comes to less well known trails. An example is the route to the bomber crash on Waternome. It is "well known" to locals, but not widely known by outsiders. At one time both Dave Metsky and I have posted directions to it. The board has crashed since, and I believe that neither of us will update those postings.

Then there are locally maintained trails that almost nobody knows about. Here I do not even mention the existence of the trail. Obviously I cannot give any examples

I cannot comment on less well known bushwhacks, since I do very few of these myself. But I do not publish any lists of peaks whose originators request non-publication. That sems to me to be basic courtesy, whether or not I agree that the lists should not be published.

 

[Peakbagr]

Mo,

The ADK100 and NE100 are different. So few have done the ADK100, many cross or on private land, there is no official recognition for them, and many, many are long, challenging bushwacks. The routes are swapped between folks who are interested in them in private messages, email and sometimes on the 46er listserv.

PB

 

[AMF]

I believe Dave Metsky, who posts here somewhat regularly, has an interesting essay on this topic on his website... sorry I do not have the http addresss at hand, but it should come up on a google for info on the White Mtns.

 

[poison ivy]

I believe Dave Metsky, who posts here somewhat regularly, has an interesting essay on this topic on his website..

It's a great essay and it's
here

Hopefully, he doesn't mind me linking to it.
- Ivy

 

[Neil]

The internet is a great thing as respects communication. Before hiking Boards sprung up, the word-of-mouth was just that. The few who were interested in bushwacking didn't have to worry about information getting out too quickly or too broadly. Just a few years ago you wouldn't have to worry about the unskilled ransacking a fragile route as they would have been out of the loop and never learned about it.

...snip...

This is a great thread Tim started. I don't feel protecting these is elitist, its just that thousands can quickly learn about something and if only a small percentage give it a try.....

OTOH I live 3 hours away from the High Peaks and would be forever outside the loop were it not for the internet. Thanks to this wonderful medium and the sharing of information I have done some great, little done routes involving bushwhacks, slides and embryonic herd trails. I've made friends (some of whom I've yet to meet in the flesh) and have learned a lot about a wide variety of subjects thanks to mine and other's threads. My Adk experience has been very greatly enhanced. So, thumbs up for internet!

If I was ''unskilled'' would I have gone and done the Wright Slide or the Santanonis in winter? Probably not. But I learned about these hikes right here.

Whenever I chat people up on the trail I usually ask if they participate in the forums. So far, everybody, with the exception of Doc McPeak, that I've querried dosn't know what I'm talking about. So perhaps the smallness of the percentage of hikers that use the forums supercedes the dangers alluded to by our editorialist (Tim, you missed your true calling )

 

[Peakbagr]

Neil,

I love the internet, hiking, and hiking boards(just look at the time I wile away at the keyboard). On the other hand, we are all stewards of the mountains. For those of us who live in NY and perhaps closer to the Adirondacks, we might take this a little more personally as they are our front yard.
I applaud that you've done the Wright Slide and Santanoni's in winter. Bravo.
I'm sure you are a very accomplished hiker. That a person has stamina and can use a map/gps says nothing as to how someone and their friends will treat one of these little used routes. This is not addressed to you, Neil. Its to the 75 other folks who might be interested.
There are plenty of good bushwacks, probably 99% that don't fall into the category of unknown jewels. That should keep folks busy for more than a lifetime.
VFTT alone has over 1000 members. If 5% of those members are inspired to go do an unknown route to a fragile place, and if they hook up with their own party to do so...you get the picture. If folks want to discover them, I'd say go out there and find them on your own.

 

[Woodspirit]

Sharing information

How about some thoughts on the information sharing issue from a little broader perspective? Anyone with access to the internet or a bookstore can obtain all kinds of information which allows them to travel areas that were never intended to be for mass recreational use and I am referring to both trail-less areas and areas with many marked trails. User groups such as the AMC and ADK publish and disseminate user manuals and maps and, being user groups, they quite naturally promote the human use of wilderness. Many areas of the Adirondacks are significantly degraded, not necessarily from misuse by individuals, but from simple overuse - the shear volume of people. The degradation is not only in the form of the physical impact on the resource but also in terms of the human intrusion and resulting degradation of the wilderness value of solitude. I’m not much of a peak bagger and my bushwhacks are pretty puny in the context of the VFTT group but I remember enjoying the wilderness solitude of the summit of Pharaoh Mountain many years ago before it was a designated Wilderness area when I would be the only person other than the fire watcher at the summit. The last time that I was there, I shared the wilderness “solitude” with perhaps fifty other people - not the kind of thing that I seek.

For many years I jealously guarded the specifics of my destinations and questioned the efficacy of user groups that actively promoted human use of the wild areas. During this time I saw my favorite areas decline from overuse, again in both the physical and spiritual wilderness sense.

I struggled with the issue of “how much information” should be out there and indeed why should any information be widely disseminated. I wondered why I should share information on the location and details of my favorite places. As a result, I shared this only with those very few that I deemed worthy of respecting these places.

There came a time when I became involved with one of these user groups on a specific wilderness management issue and I was amazed at what I found. Notwithstanding the fact that the group promoted wilderness use by its members and others, I found that it respected the wilderness at least as much as I did. Being a fairly large user group it had a broad perspective on the impact of human use on wild areas and promoted advocacy programs designed to assist in the management of human use of wild areas as well as educational and outreach programs designed to teach responsible use of the wilderness. Much to my surprise, the group also recognized the wilderness value of areas without trails and easy access. The ethic of protecting the resource was very much evident.

My conclusion is that this is a small planet which is shrinking daily and human use of wild areas will rise with or without the disclosure of our favorite backcountry areas and information on wild areas will be disseminated with or without our participation. Promote and support those user groups that have already discovered this and have the resources to be actively engaged in the promotion of the management and protection of wild areas for multi-faceted use.

That being said, like your protection of the details of sensitive bushwhacks, there are some trout holes which I will never disclose!

One person’s thoughts.

 

[Neil]

In re-reading Mavs00's initial post I see his question was more about sharing info than about the internet even tho' the two are pretty well inseperable nowadays. Woodspirit's trout hole analogy is right on and puts things into the perspective of Mav's questionning.

My opinion: keep those secret places secret.

One thing this forum has made me sensitive to is that there are people who have been hiking the HP area for a long, long time and have witnessed (been submitted to) an invasion of the masses and a deterioration of the area. Herd trails aren't what they used to be, bear-camper interaction has become a major issue, trails have turned into widened mud pits, etc. etc. All the more reason to keep those remaining ''trout holes'' special.

P.S. Peakbagr, when I mentioned doing the Santas in winter I hope I didn't come across like I was bragging. I just wanted to make the point that with NO other info sources than the internet and a map I was able to find out about, research and plan that trip and others. In fact, I still havn't obtained any books about the HP because I have been able to get all my info right here. People LOVE to share.

 

[mavs00]

It's a great essay and it's
here
- Ivy

WOW....... I identify very closely with many of his major points. I do not think that I reached his "bottom line" position yet, but soon will. Like Dave, I shared a route on my website that I now sort of regret, based on the # of e-mails I received looking for more info on it.

I share only specific route data only among a fairly small group. Admittedly some in this group I've never met (aside from the internet), but include them based on the word of friends. I have to admit to you though, I grew up and was taught to be a "giver" and "sharer". I was taught to "give the shirt of my back" if I had too. This mindset GOES AGAINST MY PERSONALITY. However, I do understand the need and sadly will continue to withhold specific data.

I guess my question comes NOT just with shared route data (which I stopped doing), but sharing photos of cool places. I recently posted some cool photos of a place I've been (NOT HOW I GOT THERE), and am getting the feeling that even this was a mistake.

I distinctly remember thumbing through John Winkler's "A Bushhwackers View of the High Peaks" and thinking, 'Oooh, that place looks cool" and "Wow, I gotta go there". He shared no route data but did identify some locations, and the photos surely stimulated my interest in studying, reseaching, route finding and eventually going to them. Is that wrong of him to do???? I guess I didn't think so at the time. After all, there are LOTS of talkers out there, and very few true whackers willing to do thier own hard work (pre-hike and hike) to get to these cool places. I suppose I beleived that those willing to do the work, deserve the nuggets to get the "mind working" in particular directions.

Thanks for the great comments.

 

[stoopid]

Well, I'd hope people still take pictures of and from Denali, and because they share these I hope we don't place blame on the photographer if someone tries to summit a 20,000 foot mountain in shorts and a t-shirt.

On the other hand, if it's an obvious case (as I think the most recent one you're referring to is) where foot-traffic will destroy the habitat, it's probably worth taking the moral high-ground just to be on the safe side.

I know when/if I ever hike to that location I will take the greatest care to leave no trace, but have witnessed first hand people just not knowing, caring, or realizing their impact on the alpine flora.

 

[Peakbagr]

The trout hole analogy is perfect.

Neil, I didn't take it that you were bragging at all. My point was that there are lots of high endurance athletes out on the Boards that have discovered the mountains. While some have strong woodcraft skills, there are others who don't know how to read a map, use a compass or would be lost without a GPS to guide them. Simply because they CAN do something, doesn't mean they SHOULD. The internet makes this a challenge.

Kevin, I agree with your post. One point, though. Just because you'll be careful, and the 25 new parties equally careful, there is no way to protect the area from so many heavy feet clomping thru. The fact that the description or location is in on the Board means the "trout hole" will be fished out before too long.

 

[stoopid]

Kevin, I agree with your post. One point, though. Just because you'll be careful, and the 25 new parties equally careful, there is no way to protect the area from so many heavy feet clomping thru. The fact that the description or location is in on the Board means the "trout hole" will be fished out before too long.

Absolutely agreed. It becomes an "us versus them" scenerio, but if being slightly elitist means the environment won't get destroyed, then I have no problem with thinking we're better than everyone.

(in case it isn't clear, I'm agreeing 100% with the gist of the discussion thus far )

 

[Tramper Al]

?

The trout hole analogy is perfect. The fact that the description or location is in on the Board means the "trout hole" will be fished out before too long.

I don't know, maybe each and every one of us is equally entitled to visit the trout hole if we want to put in the time and effort to get there with as little trace as possible.

Maybe it would be better to educate those who care enough to want to go and take a picture or two, instead of an elite few of us going there and killing the trout ourselves?

A bushwhacker may keep his secrets if he wishes, but is he really 'better' or more 'entitled' than anyone else? Who among us was born an elite bushwhacker with perfect backcountry ethics?

 

[Peakbagr]

Al,
In bushwacking, like trout fishing, victory favors the prepared.

You ARE in fact entitled to visit the same trout hole. You ( not you in particular) are not ENTITLED to know where that trout hole is located. Thats is one of the key points of the thread. Someone who spends the time doing their homework and getting shredded to discover a gem, has no obligation to share it with an audience of readers who can then pass it on to the world.
10 years ago 3 close friends would know about it. If someone posts the pictures, tracklog and route, you might as well put it on a sign in the Loj parking lot.

I'd say that its up to the individual who discovers the gem whether to give wide dissemination of the details. Included in that is whether another 10, then 20, then 50 additional parties who would never have visited the spot will change it. IMHO, of course they will.

There is a difference between my wanting to keep the trout hole all to myself so that I can fish it out, vs wanting just 2 or 3 friends who "catch and release" to know about it.

The experienced bushwacker earned the right to decide by paying dues over years of crummy routes to locate those few gems. If others want to follow in those footsteps. The internet community doesn't have the right to trample them. They need to learn the craft in areas that are less fragile and discover their own gems.

PB

 

[Grumpy]

Two points about this:

1) - The decision to tell or not to tell is a personal and individual one. There are no external “rules” regarding it. Individuals weigh the matter and make their choices. Those who disagree with a decision to tell or not might legitimately express disappointment over it, and say why, but it is best left at that.

2) - In discussing this please spare us remarks about who is “worthy” and who is “unworthy” to know the secret spot, the secret handshake, the secret route, the secret bug dope formula. Consequences of spilling the beans or not is what really should be under discussion if one needs to justify a position.

G.

 

[WalksWithBlackflies]

I gotta agree with Mohamed. I regularly share info on maintained trails and herd paths. I would also share info on bushwhacks that are well known in the hiking community (ex - Shepard's Tooth) or go to known locations that are easily identifiable on a map (ex - Cliff from Flowed Lands). I would not, however, give details such as GPS coordinates. Also, I wouldn't share info on "secret places" such as airplane crash sites, alpine meadows, old logging camps, etc. IMO, describing such areas cheapens them.

BTW, I'd bet that more hikers are "turned-off" than "turned-on" to certain bushwhacks after reading about blowdown, cripple brush, etc.