Who here is afraid of mud?

[--M.]

Now this is the kind of socratic discourse I come here for.

Both of these last two posts are well written and (at least apparently) well reasoned.

My own history of how to deal with mud is probably common: I used to avoid it by going along the edges, and now I try to stay on the trail.

There are two paths this issue may take: half-life of a truth, where the actual methods evolve through reversals; and revelation, where we learn in a straight line. I wonder which will prevail, but I like hearing both the differing views and the advice from those who have been there ("there" being trail maintenance).

Lastly, this is a relevant issue we need to discuss: the Crawford Paths of our regions aren't going away, so we need to know how to keep them from being dug to China. Didn't Guy Waterman gain fame by placing stones on Franconia Ridge through sitting and watching hikers pass?

I like hearing forestnome's arguments and gleaning the truth from them, but it's Pete's experience that sounds like it bears more weight.

--M.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

but it's Pete's experience that sounds like it bears more weight.

Remember, though, that my experience is only in the Adirondacks. I know things are not the same as the Whites, which have and deeper mineral soil. I know nothing about Vermnot, other than how to spell it.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I know nothing about Vermnot, other than how to spell it.

And a damn fine job you did, Pete!

 

[forestgnome]

What about if the mud is 3-4 feet deep? Mini gators don't do much if there is mud in which you can get stuck.

Not sure in your area, but the problem is in steep sections, where the hiking REMOVES the soil. No issue in the flats.

Nifty! I do whatever I want, and someone will clean up after me.

Ever see a 30 foot wide section that used to be soil/tree covered, and is now just bare rock?


Even on trails in which the state ASKS you not to hike on?

1) I've never seen mud that deep in the White Mtns., but the gaitors still keep the mud out. I've been through mud over the gaitors, as well as water, and they work great!

2) As I stated, where erosion is a problem(steep sections) trail crews fix the problem. Doesn't that happen anyway, despite mud season hiking?

3) You're not saving the planet from me. I bury more tp wads and remove more trash from the White Mountains than any hiker or trail crew. You've have never cleaned up after me. Noone has. I clean up after them.

4) Never seen a 30' section of bare rock that was caused exclusively by hiking in mud season in the White Mtns. I've seen many 3x that wide caused by slides where noone hikes. I have seen widened areas of bare rock in ledgy areas, but is that exclusively caused by hiking in mud season? What about autumn, when those areas have a thin sheet of ice and people hike on the blueberries to avoid the ice? What about crampons and snowshoes beating down vegetation all winter long? Shall we ban autumn and winter hiking? Is the forest really suffering because there are areas where the trail is wider than a few feet?

5) State of NH doesn't make that silly request. You should see how many Vermonters show up in the Whites Mtns. during mud season.

Well, I'm off to the trailhead!

 

[Pete_Hickey]

2) As I stated, where erosion is a problem(steep sections) trail crews fix the problem. Doesn't that happen anyway, despite mud season hiking?

My point was that hiking in mud can cause MORE work for them. There are areas where, if not walked upon at certain times, will NOT become problems. So, by walking through these areas, you are creating a mess which someone has to clean up after. Had you stayed off, there would be no mess.

5) State of NH doesn't make that silly request. You should see how many Vermonters show up in the Whites Mtns. during mud season.

You call it a silly request because of your limited knowledge. NH has a tremendous amount of mineral material in its soil, and mud is not a problem. There are areas with a very shallow soil depth and the soil is purely organic. There are areas where walking at certain times can cause damage which remains.

Just because in your limited experience you haven't seen them, don't ridicule people who have to live with them.

 

[DougPaul]

1) I've never seen mud that deep in the White Mtns., but the gaitors still keep the mud out. I've been through mud over the gaitors, as well as water, and they work great!

I have heard reports of mud at least knee deep in the Mahoosucs.

4) Never seen a 30' section of bare rock that was caused exclusively by hiking in mud season in the White Mtns.

On the trail up to Welch, just before you reach the first open slabs with a view, there is a region that used to be 1 or 2 inches of soil over rock. It is now rather a wide trail on a bare rock slab bordered by trees, due to foot damage and erosion. It is well over 30 ft long and probably over 30 ft wide in some places. There are some belated efforts to control erosion with lines of rocks around the islands of remaining soil.

I'm with Pete on this one--any time you hike you have an effect on the soil that you step on. It is far greater when the soil is soaked or soft than it is when hard and dry. Your passage will also compact dry soft soils and damage vegetation. I usually do little hiking when the trails are wet and muddy (no matter what time of year), in part to reduce my impact.


Re the original topic: I prefer white mud--the kind that magically vanishes from your clothing and footgear after a while...

Doug

 

[sleeping bear]

Coming out of Mahoosuc Notch heading North up Mahoosuc Arm (?) the trail is AWFUL. It's really steep and most places are 5-10 wide bare rock. You can see where people skirt the edges of the trail to hang on to roots and trees. The soil along the edges is thin and pretty much every step knocks it back and every grab of tree/root sends loose soil down. I doubt that whole problem is due to mud coditions, but it's definitly people skirting the edges of the trail. In heavy rain I bet it's just a solid water slide top to bottom.

 

[DougPaul]

You can see where people skirt the edges of the trail to hang on to roots and trees. The soil along the edges is thin and pretty much every step knocks it back and every grab of tree/root sends loose soil down. I doubt that whole problem is due to mud coditions, but it's definitly people skirting the edges of the trail. In heavy rain I bet it's just a solid water slide top to bottom.

A common problem... When people skirt the edges of a muddy spot, the edges also turn to mud and the muddy spot just gets wider. And if it is a spot where there may be significant water flow, then the mud can be washed away.

The deep mud spots in the Mahoosucs that I was referring to were along the flat ridges. Many of these spots had (have?) bog bridges to protect the trail.

Some trails (eg Roaring Brook to Chimney pond in the '70s--don't know if it has been fixed) are just trenches due to the combined actions of feet and moving water.

Doug

 

[forestgnome]

don't ridicule people who have to live with them./QUOTE]

You ridiculed me. I don't see any ridicule in my post.

I know the soils are different in different places. It's been discussed here many times. Perhaps you didn't know, due to a lack of experience in the White Mtns., that certain people and influential groups advocate staying off the trails here in mud season. I wasn't refering to anywhere else. For instance, last mud season a large, well-known hiking club advocated staying off the trails in the White Mtns. At the same time they hosted a huge group trip at Lake George (IIRC), NY., for activities including hiking. These people and others want the state and FS to close trails in mud season in the White Mountains.

If anyone really believes that hiking is distructive and irresponsible during times when the trails are not perfectly dry, then they should stay home. How many days per year are the trails perfectly dry? If anyone advocates closing trails in the White Mtns., I will excersise my First Amendment right vigorously. You think opposition to trail closures is based in ignorance or irreverence, but you're wrong. The problem is blown way out proportion. Trail closure is a radical reaction to a tiny issue. I wish such attention was given to litter.

Again, off to the trailhead

 

[sleeping bear]

Here's a less radical alternative to closing trails...
... yes those are fences...

 

[Neil]

Last May I did some very pleasant bushwhacks to some sub-4000 footers. There was a carpet of last year's leaves and annual plants without mud or residual ice anywhere I went. The views were great because leaf-out hadn't occured yet.

I don't know what the carrying capacity of the White Mountains is for offtrail travel but for anyone wanting to get out but not wanting to encounter mud and/or contribute to trail widening, erosion etc. it could be a good alternative.

 

[RoySwkr]

I read not too long ago, I have no idea where it was, that there is another mud season in the fall, when the ground freezes overnight and thaws during the day. That is supposed to be particularly tough on the soil, so hiking stresses it even more and should be avoided until the ground freezes and stays frozen.

The town road closing for mud in Barnard VT is Oct.15-May 1, so the fall mud season is longer than the spring one there.

4) Never seen a 30' section of bare rock that was caused exclusively by hiking in mud season in the White Mtns.

Sure, once it gets 3' wide you can hike on bedrock and there's no need to make wider detour for mud

5) State of NH doesn't make that silly request. You should see how many Vermonters show up in the Whites Mtns. during mud season.

Unfortunately you're wrong, Pawtuckaway State Park closes trails during mud season and you can get a citation if you disobey. They close the whole park if a few trails are muddy so they don't have to deal with them individually. Caused by huge surge in mtn biking but applies to everybody.

 

[forestgnome]

Sure, once it gets 3' wide you can hike on bedrock and there's no need to make wider detour for mud .

But that's actually my point about mud season hiking getting a bum wrap. Once the trail in a ledgy area is down to bedrock there is no mud!!! But there is ice in autumn, especially late autumn. So are hikers widening the trail to avoid non-existant mud in May, or are they avoiding ice in October, November and December?

If we're going to nitpick about every little "negative" effect we can find caused by hiking we could justify illegalizing human existance in the forest. I'll bet most littering happens in June, July, and August, not that anyone seems to give a s*#t about litter. Also, we get rain 9 months a year. I've heard of trails being closed in BNP, IIRC, due to rain. In December through April, hikers are stepping all over the krumholz in the alpine zones. Then, it's evil mud season hiking. So we have negative impact from hikers all year long, but so what? We fix the problems.

Today, on the Pine Bend Brook Trail, there were quite a few blowdowns that could not be dragged off by hand, and I didn't have my saw. Each one had a distinct trail around them where people are hiking around instead of through the blowdown. Maybe we should close all trails in the White Mtns. each time there's a bad wind storm until the official trail crews can officially clear the blowdowns and officially deem the trails passable for we pleebs. Of course, this would take months, but we could save the planet from those destructive little sidepaths which (GASP ) widen the path.

Trail closure is an hysterical overreaction to a minor problem, and I won't let any advocacy for it go unchecked. It's too important.