Why is it important to "Leave No Trace" ?

[Rivet]

new jingle

Hate it b/c that jingle and weird looking owl will be in my head all day.

Maybe we can update it...

Save this place
Leave no trace
Never be a lazy bum
On the summit or on the trail
Help keep our wilderness ... looking swell

(OK, I'm not the best jingle writer )

 

[David Metsky]

Hey Rivet, speaking of bringing back memories, remember that 'Keep America Beautiful' ad with the Native American? He had a tear running down his cheek. That was a powerful message!

Not that it takes away from the message at all, but Iron Eyes Cody, the Indian in that piece, was actually Espera DeCorti, a 2nd generation Italian-American.

http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/ironeyes.htm

Please carry on this very interesting discussion.

-dave-

 

[DougPaul]

It does not make a whole lot of difference to the environment on which day an individual or group decides to go or if a group of 10 or 2 groups of 5 travel the same route.

It might if you are camping--the larger group will require more tentsites.

"Use a map and compass to eliminate the use of marking paint, rock cairns or flagging" Personally rock cairins do not bother me.

Off-trail cairns result in people wandering all over the place looking for the trail. The trampling can be worse than the extra cairns. A GPS is another method for reducing the perceived need for unofficial trail markings.

"Pack out toilet paper" This is a little too extreme for me in most cases. Burying it below the surfaces well off the trail is sufficient, but I am discusted by seeing toilet paper (and human feces) on the trail or just off to the side.

Easy enough to do on dayhikes or short over-nighters. I just carry an extra plastic bag or few with my TP. One rationale for packing the TP out is that animals may dig it up and spread it around. Burying is only effective in certain soil conditions--TP is particularly a problem above timerline (put it under the rock with everyone else's used TP?). In some places, visitors are required to carry out the poop too...

Just another viewpoint...

Doug

 

[KayakDan]

LNT principles make sense if you look at things in the long term. It's not the impact you as one individual make,but the accumulated impact of hundreds who come before you and after you. Think about the behavior of others that would lessen your "wilderness" experience-and avoid doing it yourself. LNT is really easy,once it becomes an accustomed practice.
I'll be the first to say,I probably don't get it done 100%,but we make a conscious effort,and that's the point of LNT training. I guess the point is"leave it the way you would want to find it".
As kayakers,and Maine Island Trail members and volunteer,we are aware of the fragile balance of Maine's coastal islands.LNT is a neccesity. The soil is only a few inches deep,and burying waste would result in rock islands with no vegetation,on some of the heavily used places. An out of control campfire could devestate an island,with no means to stop it. We share LNT,in a friendly way,with new kayakers,so we can all enjoy the environment we love,into the distant future.
In the end,if it 's in the woods,or on the coast,it's about protecting what we enjoy,so we can continue to have that experience.

 

[mavs00]

Beyond LNT

Sure, like many of you, I try my hardest to LNT in practice while hiking, I also do my best to teach my children to LNT and become stewards of the land for long after the time I’m dead and gone. But at the same time, I think there are much deeper aspects to the WHOLE question of human/wilderness symbiosis then just walking softly and quietly in the woods.

Our interaction and impact with the natural world can be as much non-physical as it is physical, particularly with the advent of mass-communication. Let me explain. I can go on a outing to, lets say, a pretty little lake and waterfall that is totally pristine in nature. I travel so carefully that I physically leave NO TRACE of my physical passing (at least none that the great creator won’t undo within a few days ) . Then I go home and because it was so amazing, I share it with a few THOUSAND of my closest VFTT friends. Let’s say only .5% (or ten) decide to check it out based on my description. Let’s say it’s 3 groups of 3-4 (which you know will leave at least some impact), they love it too, and each tell 1-2 other friends and so on. Guess what, I LEFT A TRACE. Not a physical one, but an impact just the same. Perhaps even worse because of the fact that I’m not sure the followers follow the same set of ethics I do.

Ditto for explorers like our heroes The Marshalls, Darby Field, Guy Waterman (yes, I’ll include him too) and beyond (Mallory, Irvine, Shacklton, Columbus, etc) and anyone else that has found something and publicly said, “hey, look what I found/did/finished”. Waterman was probably the best at later spending great amounts of time and effort “forcing” people to reflect on topics very much like this one (This thought is, in fact, generated in my little brain by a lot of my reading of his works).

I rarely get preachy on LNT threads for that very reason. I HAVE left a trace, both in a physical way, but to a greater extent, in a non-physical way as described above. WE ALL HAVE. Pretty much just by participating in a public (and widely seen) BB dedicated to EXPLORING the great NE OUTDOORS, we all might have left some minute "trace". I won’t berate anyone either for (lapses) in physical LNT, and do not need anyone to berate mine. Trust me, my “traces” weigh heavily enough on my mind .

By the same token, we can leave a positive trace as well. I think many of us on here try to do just that. It’s obvious the wide majority of those that post frequently on here, care deeply about the places we tread. Perhaps we differ on some aspects, but we all care. Threads like these are great for the physical LNT, but I hope that people keep the VERY POWERFUL non-physical LNT principles in the back of the mind too. I put myself at the top of the list .

Sorry if this is a little winded, off topic, too philosophical or just plain boring.

 

[Mark Driscoll]

Tim well said. Do not get too down on yourself. Those 10 people from VFTT would most likely gone hiking somewhere else if you did not post about this new place. By doing so you indirectly reduced the impact on that area.

That brings us back to the debate over heavy impact in a small area vs. less impact over a large area.

Mark

 

[Mark Schaefer]

LNT is an ideal, impossible to absolutely achieve, unless you also practice "Go No Place".

A single LNT definition that everybody would agree to or that would make sense in every location is also impossible. Protecting the environment and the future of wilderness experiences is what is important, and that will vary in different areas. Healthy debates on each area's management practices and rules are necessary. It is a good thing those debates are long, on-going, and evolve over time.

I may not like every rule that is imposed on me when I visit wilderness areas, but I try to abide. Hopefully the environment will not become so spoiled nor the rules so oppressive that we have to practice GNP.

 

[shadowcat]

Lnt

To me, LNT simply means respect.
And, I would like to think that when I leave; the only trace of my being is in either no trace of my visit or that I left it better than it was (ie: picking up after a less respectful person)
I think of the woods like my home. I wouldn't want anyone coming into my home & throw trash on my floors, leave dirty diapers in the corner, cig butts next to my door or carve their name into my dining room table. And I certainly wouldn't want them taking a crap in the middle of my living room!
Respect
a simple word, yet
it carries a lot of weight
a complicated word because
obviously many can't grasp its meaning

 

[jjmcgo]

On the other hand...

Tim wrote: "I share it with a few THOUSAND of my closest VFTT friends. Let’s say only .5% (or ten) decide to check it out based on my description. Let’s say it’s 3 groups of 3-4 (which you know will leave at least some impact), they love it too, and each tell 1-2 other friends and so on."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this. This is actually the purpose of the WMNF, a national forest with wilderness areas in close proximity to large population centers. The public is invited, in unlimited numbers, to enjoy the area within. This is the best place for those new to hiking and camping and groups like the Scouts to see the beauty of unspoiled forests, mountains and lakes. There are places further distant throughout New England where complete solitude can be found.
The LNT rules are important in WMNF because of the expected heavy use.

 

[Jasonst]

The wilderness quite often heals itself (as stated by Mavs) What could have left more impact in the Pemi than the fires, logging and railroading of last century? Over time, the wilderness wil regrow and recover. Take a closed trail, for instance - how long does it take before that trail is no longer distinguishable? 5, 10, 15 years? The wilderness is quite hardy and not as fragile as many would indicate.

 

[imarchant]

TP is particularly a problem above timerline (put it under the rock with everyone else's used TP?).

Just another viewpoint...

Doug

Good point, I would agree with this under these conditions. In the NE USA, I do not think that anyone would need to spend so much time above the treeline that they could not wait to do there business at a lower elevation, where the waste could be burried in a cathole.

As far as my comments about initials carved in rock, The areas are would not be considered wilderness areas, but LNT should be practiced everywhere.

 

[DougPaul]

The wilderness quite often heals itself (as stated by Mavs) What could have left more impact in the Pemi than the fires, logging and railroading of last century? Over time, the wilderness wil regrow and recover. Take a closed trail, for instance - how long does it take before that trail is no longer distinguishable? 5, 10, 15 years? The wilderness is quite hardy and not as fragile as many would indicate.

The rate at which wilderness heals is quite variable. The footprints from one person passing can last many (perhaps >100) years in certain regions of the desert. (Google "cryptobiotic soil". eg http://www.nps.gov/care/crypto.htm.)
And a continuous strip of damage, such as a single bicycle track, can erode out far worse than a line of footprints. Sets of single vehicle tracks are still visible in Arctic tundra 50 years later. Some unused trails can still be found after 100s of years. On the other hand, in an area such as the NE, a trail can disappear in a few years (but portions can also last 10s of years). Many of the logging roads and railroad beds that we see (and follow) in the Whites must be 50+ years old.

Also depends on one's definition of "healed". A causual observer (say, in the NE), might feel an area has healed if it has revegetated. But a wildlife biologist might observe a limited variety of species, a lack of old growth, lasting effects of erosion, etc.

So, yes, natural processes will "repair" wilderness. But if we hope current wilderness will remain wilderness, we need to bear in mind not only the immediate impact of our actions (and the number of actors), but the ability of the area to recover from these impacts.

Doug

 

[Jasonst]

Speaking for NH, I think it's also important to remember that weather will have far greater impact on the wilderness areas than will hikers. All of the work put into complying with many LNT principles can quickly be wiped out with a nasty hurricane or ice storm. So then, is there cause to worry about trail erosion by hikers?

 

[Tramper Al]

Hey,

This is the second LNT thread in recent months in which everyone seems to be for it, yet there still is a lot of resistance to the principles frequently expressed in other threads.

There are some interesting ideas going back and forth here.

Animals do leave a trace, yes, but I hope we are not suggesting that therefore, we can too.Packed out trash may end up in the landfill outside of town, but surely that is better than leaving it behind, yes?

Nature can seem to be resilient and reclaim areas previously scarred by man, but I hope we are not saying let's no worry so much about LNT.

Finally, no matter how much you think you know, be open to new ideas and a greater common good. I recently found myself in a remote section of Maine, 1.5 days of long walking out in either direction. I was holding a bowl of the most discusting "Shrimp Creole" I have ever tasted, wondering if the two (not sure why I had the second) bites were going to cause be acute GI distress (always fun on a backpacking trip). In fact, this freeze dried dish traced it's origins to the early 1980s, I believe. I asked the young fellow with whom I was travelling if he thought I could compost the stuff, and he prudently convinced me to pack in out instead. So I got a little more LNT that day.

There are places in the Northeast where making the ultimate pack-it-out sacrifice is warranted, and the Maine Island Trail and mountain alpine zones have been mentioned. And just for the record, at a leisurely pace, you can walk above treeline in one direction in New England for a good couple of days. It's no secret where that location is, nor who appropriately manages the solid waste composting / disposal in that fragile area.

Few of us on our own have the ability or inclination to have a lasting adverse inpact on the wild places we visit, but that is hardly the point. Priniciples are just that, a higher moral ground for the common good, an ideal to which to aspire, an example to others.

Put simply, imagine if "everyone did that", what would our wild areas be like.

 

[DougPaul]

Speaking for NH, I think it's also important to remember that weather will have far greater impact on the wilderness areas than will hikers. All of the work put into complying with many LNT principles can quickly be wiped out with a nasty hurricane or ice storm.

Not necessarily, on both points.

So then, is there cause to worry about trail erosion by hikers?

Yes. Hiking on a path destroys the ground cover and roots that would otherwise protect the soil. The soil then erodes away. I have been on trails which are a seveal foot deep rocky trench from this combination.

A self-serving viewpoint might be that an eroded trail is more laborious to walk on than a non-eroded trail.

A big part of trail design, building, and maintenence is erosion control.

Doug

 

[Neil]

Leave a well managed trace?

For some reason LNT discussions always makes me think of the important role the WMNF and the ADK parks play in fostering awareness in the general public's eye regarding our dependance and impact on the world's ecosystems.

I believe LNT priciples should be followed by everyone who ventures into the woods. However, in practice, leaving properly managed "traces" may be the reality for some time to come.

Let me elaborate.

Outside of the parks, most of the landscape south of latitude 50 has been altered by man's activities. The average person is exposed to so little of what can be called truly natural and is so used to technological fixes and our throwaway culture that the concept of "nature" may be becoming totally meaningless.

Because of this more people need to be exposed to and be awed by the regions that we hikers so jealously protect and use for our spiritual and physical renewal. Every citizen should be humbled by their own puniness compared to the massive landscapes that the park boundaries enclose. Will John Q. Public's intro to the wonders of nature be a hike along the herd path to Mt Dix? I doubt it. A more likely intro would be a drive in the family car up to the summit of Whiteface or Washington. Or perhaps a hike to Marcy Dam and back.

These "newbie friendly" interfaces between wilderness and civilization allow the uninitiated to rub up against some raw nature. The hordes of people who might otherwise never venture out of an amusement park are getting educated in some small, perhaps unconcious, way at these places and hopefully they will become more ecologically aware.

Obviously, there will be people who want to venture beyond the parking lots and road side attractions. As the number of back country visitors continues to increase so will the impact. There will be increasing spillover from the most popular hikes to the less visited mountains, then to the herd trails and finally we'll see more hikers bushwhacking up even lesser known gems such as Lost Pond Peak. Websites such as this will facilitate this movement but I don't think they are the cause. I believe this process is inevitable and that we must accept and managed it intelligently.

In sum, it's good for the green movement that people come to the parks and get exposed to a bit of nature. It should be encouraged but will be a causative agent in increasing the number of back country users. They should be educated and the situation should be actively managed.

The principles of LNT must be an essential and integral part of that management but I don't think we can permanantly freeze the Adirondacks and the Whites in their present configuration. A few pairs of antlers or two are going to get moved.

 

[Lawn Sale]

Lnt

I practice the LNT doctrine, but not to the extreme. Let's face it, packing out your own feces is a bit unnecessary. I have also picked up my fair share of trash, and I never walk over it, even when I have a multiple day hike ahead of me. But, some traces will be gone in a matter of days, and do no impact to the environment, which is the main crux of the doctrine.

Everything can be taken to the extreme, which often borders on lunacy. I have attended similar classes on hiking and kayaking, and just as an example, someone in the last class mentioned checking the weather forecast for Mt. Washington for kayaking off Acadia. It's not LNT, but it's just as preposterous.

 

[sierra]

A couple of points to start, Dave M. are you sure about that Indian, I dont doubt you, but thats a bummer. Tramper Al, you packing out that shrimp dish to me is a good example of LNT going to far, I mean cmon 1.5 days out? and your buddy didnt think composting was cool? that is a great example of LNT going to far , imo. I use that example for my main point, like many issues in and out of the woods, people take it to far and that leads to a breakdown of both interest and commitment of the average person. Im not faulting you or critizing you, just making a point.
I try to be carefull in the backcountry, it is a finite resource, make know mistake about it. But I will not pack out poop, I compost alot of food. I try to do the best I can, but admittily am not an extemist on the issue.

 

[J.P.]

Well, considering that if you carry out your trash and then dispose of it properly - it ends up burried anyway (in a landfill).

Not if it is recycled.

 

[Dugan]

What this thread shows me is that there doesn't seem to be a strict definition of "leave-no-trace". It seems to be highly dependent upon the environment in which the dumping occurs.

For instance, near the summit of Zealand this past weekend, I dumped two quarts of water that I'd brought from home. Doing so is not strictly LNT (please accept my apologies in advance of discovering any new mutant creatures). Dumping potable water into a puddle on Zealand might be okay, whereas dumping the same water in say, Carlsbad Caverns, would be considered contamination.