Wind Stopping Base Layer Advice

[Remix]

I was wondering how many people use a dedicated wind stopping base layer with the special fabric AND a shell for really windy conditions. These shirts seem to be expensive and rarely go on sale. I don't want to buy a wind stopping fleece mid-layer because I already have way too much fleece.

 

[David Metsky]

Base layers are generally for wicking moisture from the skin. I'm not sure how it would do that if it was also wind stopping.

 

[dave.m]

Are you referring to garments like the classic Marmot DriClime Windshirt?

 

[sierra]

To expound on what dave said, the base layer is not for blocking wind. While a shell is a strong method, I prefer to block it at the mid layer, so I can still get alot of breathability, as a shell can get hot. In cold very windy conditions, I count on my Gore-tex shell for wind protection, as being hot is moot.

 

[DougPaul]

I generate a lot of heat and tend to sweat quite a bit when active, so breathability is important for me. A wind-proof base layer would kill me... (by hyper-thermia)

As others have stated, you want the layer close to your skin to be breathable and block the wind with an outer layer.

I have and use:
1) a breathable base layer (polyester or wool)
2) 100 weight, 200 weight, and 300 weight fleece vests, all breathable (I only take one with me.)
3) a 200 weight fleece jacket (breathable)
4) a 200 weight wind-blocking fleece jacket (slightly breathable). As a slightly lighter weight alternative, I also have an MH compressor jacket (nylon shell, polyester insulation)--its wind permeability and warmth is similar to the wind-blocking fleece.
5) Several water-proof breathable shells (parka length, Again, I only take one on a trip.)
I put them on in the order shown above and usually leave some of the layers off (except for #1) as the situation dictates.

I might start out will all of the above layers and take them off as I warm up sometimes going down to only #1. Hiking/skiing with only #1, #2, and #3 (or a subset) is particularly nice because it is so breathable and I stay nice and dry. #4 is useful if there is a gentle wind or under #5 in higher winds.

Unless it is windy, it is generally fairly steamy if I wear #5. (The moisture permeability of many of the waterproof-breathable fabrics goes down in the cold.) I was taught in winter school to keep my shell on and adjust the layers underneath, but I have found it to be more comfortable for me if I get rid of the shell (#5) and the "partial shell" (#4) earlier rather than later unless it is windy, raining, or snowing (either from the sky or trees). The #5 shell is also handy if there is a good chance of falling into the snow when skiing--it is part of my "crash suit".

All of the above layers except #1 have full front zips--I adjust them frequently to maintain my proper heat level and to allow ventilation.

Note: Back when I started (before fleece) the insulation layers were all wool sweaters and heavy wool shirts. They still work and are still used by some. Several of us on this BBS also feel that wool is better than fleece in very wet conditions.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

agree.. baselayer is for wicking. if you are having an issue with wind chilling your chest area at certain times in your hike you can use a cycling trick and bring a USPS tyvek envelope and put it between your baselayer and jacket (could get fancy and glue on velcro to stick it there even) free, weighs very little and is quickly added/removed instead of changing a layer.

There are some vests that have a wind-blocking fleece front and a regular (permeable) fleece back. You regulate your front breathability with the zipper.

A friend (who also generates a lot of heat and sweat) has one and likes it. Never tried one myself.

Doug

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Not what you want to hear, but the POLARTEC WIND PRO has been a nice balance of warmth, breathability, and wind resistance for me.

I have used my EMS windpro fleece jacket as a soft shell for years. One thing that fabric does not do well is shed water, so you need to be conscious of wiping off any snow before it melts. Can do double duty as an insulating layer when using a hard shell for the really windy condtions but I would not consider it an great insulating layer in its own right.

 

[Remix]

Base layers are generally for wicking moisture from the skin. I'm not sure how it would do that if it was also wind stopping.

Agreed, but many wind blocking shirts claim to wick or let moisture through like The DriClime shirt. I think Goretex makes something too.

 

[Tim Seaver]

A bit OT - I don't use a wind-stopping base layer, but do sometimes wear a wind shell over my base layer but underneath an insulating non-windproof synthetic jacket (rather than over it). Because I sweat a lot, I find this odd combination works well - it prevents my perspiration from getting into my insulating layer ( and seems to shut down the sweating mechanism faster), while also allowing the insulating layer to breathe better and shed some heat. Moderately windy days above treeline is when this seems to work well for me , but my experience is that everyone is quite different when it comes to temperature and heat regulation. Experimenting is the key!

 

[--M.]

I too am capable of prodigious sweat and also agree that it is to be minimized, especially in winter. I have had good luck with Starter (brand) base layers from Walmart. A compression long-sleeve tee provides a ton of warmth. I add other non-compression layers of the same stuff over it, and then consider if I need fleece or wool beneath my shell. Once going, it's just the base-layers and the shell. If we summit, I'll throw on the puffy or fleece, but just 'til back in the trees. Sweating stuff out seems verboten to me.

Also, in terms of wind, if I don't have all my base layers tucked in (usually to hiking pants plus-or-minus Precip pants); the wind can come up under the shell. Gotta keep that nailed down.

I love having a firm outer layer (Precip shell or REI Shuksan hard-shell) and varying the intermediate layers underneath.

That Tyvek cyclers' trick is a good one!

 

[Remix]

There are some vests that have a wind-blocking fleece front and a regular (permeable) fleece back. You regulate your front breathability with the zipper.

A friend (who also generates a lot of heat and sweat) has one and likes it. Never tried one myself.

Doug

Yes from googling around I see these are targeted to runners and cyclists...

 

[Tim Seaver]

If you are sweating that much then you are over dressed. in that case you probably didnt need the insulating layer at all and should have kept it in the pack for when you stopped or it got colder.

Um, no. I sweat a lot regardless. This is a method I have used for years. YMMV.

 

[Neil]

I also sweat a lot. With only a thin base layer shirt under a lightweight eVent jacket the shirt gets soaked, even below 0. Therefore, I wear the Mtn. Hardware transition zip-T which is made with next to skin (N2S) windstopper fabric. The reason I like it is that of all the various fabrics I've tried the Transition absorbs the least amount of water. Also, when it's really cold the windstopper fabric is warmer than others I've tried and even when I feel chilly I still sweat a fair bit. Sometimes on ascents, and down to +10F if there is no wind I'll wear just the shirt.

So in my case, a wind stopping base layer works pretty good. I usually swap the wet shirt for a dry one for hanging out on the summit and for the descent.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I think you misunderstand Jake. I am not using a vapor barrier, I am using a breathable shell.

I'd love to hear what's worked for you above treeline over the years.

 

[DougPaul]

A bit OT - I don't use a wind-stopping base layer, but do sometimes wear a wind shell over my base layer but underneath an insulating non-windproof synthetic jacket (rather than over it). Because I sweat a lot, I find this odd combination works well - it prevents my perspiration from getting into my insulating layer ( and seems to shut down the sweating mechanism faster), while also allowing the insulating layer to breathe better and shed some heat. Moderately windy days above treeline is when this seems to work well for me , but my experience is that everyone is quite different when it comes to temperature and heat regulation. Experimenting is the key!

Sounds like a semi-vapor (or semi-permeable) barrier. It is my understanding that VBs are more for shutting down insensible perspiration than perspiration due to over heating. IMO an advanced technique. (But I haven't tried it myself--it would have to be pretty cold for me to use it without overheating since I often have to strip down to my baselayer if the temp is 20F or above. I'm mostly familiar with the use of VBs at low temps, say below 0F.) Sounds like it works for you...
Some refs for the curious:
* http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/vb.txt courtesy of Dave.m.
* http://warmlite.com/vapor-barrier-clothing

I suggest that people stick to the breathable inner layers technique until they are familiar with it and then if they wish, try techniques such as this.

I have a friend who can hike in a water-proof shell while I am overheating, sweating, and ventilating as much as possible. She just doesn't sweat much. She clearly has a different set of trade-offs than I do.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

If you are sweating that much then you are over dressed. in that case you probably didnt need the insulating layer at all and should have kept it in the pack for when you stopped or it got colder.

Um, no. I sweat a lot regardless. This is a method I have used for years. YMMV.

I also tend to sweat a good bit when active without being overheated or overdressed. While cycling in cool weather (eg 40F) I can feel hot and cold and sweat all at the same time...

Different people's bodies respond differently. One just has to learn how one's own body responds and how to adjust one's clothing, techniques, and activity level according.

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

I suggest that people stick to the breathable inner layers technique until they are familiar with it and then if they wish, try techniques such as this.

Yes, it's definitely not for everyone, and something I only do under the specific conditions I mention to keep my insulating layer from taking on moisture from perspiration ( where it could freeze within the insulation), particularly at higher exertion levels ( I generally would not do this below treeline there isn't enough wind to assist in the venting/drying).

 

[dave.m]

A bit OT - I don't use a wind-stopping base layer, but do sometimes wear a wind shell over my base layer but underneath an insulating non-windproof synthetic jacket (rather than over it). Because I sweat a lot, I find this odd combination works well - it prevents my perspiration from getting into my insulating layer ( and seems to shut down the sweating mechanism faster), while also allowing the insulating layer to breathe better and shed some heat. Moderately windy days above treeline is when this seems to work well for me , but my experience is that everyone is quite different when it comes to temperature and heat regulation. Experimenting is the key!

Tim, you aren't alone in using this approach.

I have an old Pertex windshirt that I use for hiking and cycling that was once sold by Lands' End (of all people) back when they were providing clothing for Will Steger. Steger advocating using the windshirt on to top of the inner layer and below insulation, just as you describe and for the same reason you describe. Sort of a quasi-vapor barrier.

It is also very, very close to the Pertex and Pile approach of Buffalo Systems from Scotland. Chris Townsend writes about this in one of his books (he's a good read).

And, what you describe is essentially the same thing as the Marmot Dri Clime windshirt, which is designed to be worn either next to skin or as a windshirt over other layers.
http://marmot.com/products/driclime_windshirt

It's counter intuitive but in some conditions, it really works.

Not clear to me this is what the OP was asking about though. Am wondering if there are wind resistant knit offerings now. I'm a bit out of touch with recent stuff.

 

[DougPaul]

Yes, it's definitely not for everyone, and something I only do under the specific conditions I mention to keep my insulating layer from taking on moisture from perspiration ( where it could freeze within the insulation), particularly at higher exertion levels ( I generally would not do this below treeline there isn't enough wind to assist in the venting/drying).

Yes, it would certainly tend to keep one's main insulating layers drier and it makes sense that one would only use it in specific conditions.

Have you ever tried a fully water-proof VB shirt?

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

I think I did try some of the VBL shirts awhile back, but didn't like the perpetual clammy feeling at all, and they didn't seem to function as intended ( at least for me) in shutting down the sweat mechanism. If I remember right, I would get so wet that the perspiration would run all the way into my socks. Having a shirt to swap out as Neil mentioned is a big plus.