Wind Stopping Base Layer Advice

[Tim Seaver]

I have an old Pertex windshirt that I use for hiking and cycling that was once sold by Lands' End (of all people) back when they were providing clothing for Will Steger. Steger advocating using the windshirt on to top of the inner layer and below insulation, just as you describe and for the same reason you describe. Sort of a quasi-vapor barrier.

It is also very, very close to the Pertex and Pile approach of Buffalo Systems from Scotland. Chris Townsend writes about this in one of his books (he's a good read).

Interesting that you mention Will Steger - his descriptions of their sleeping bags taking on 35 pounds of frozen moisture over the course of their expeditions comes to mind. Thanks for the other info too!
An article from 1987 Backpacker on sleeping bags mentions that the reason Steger didn't use VBL's in their sleeping bags was to allow their clothing ( that they wore to sleep) to dry, having no alternative to transferring their accumulated body moisture to the bag.

EDIT: Some thoughts on the topic from alpinist Mark Twight.

 

[Tim Seaver]

VBL gear hasn't seen much popularity since I first used it in 1992 on Denali, mostly because it's pretty uncomfortable. Do a search around the web, you will find it's not a real hot seller. Comments like these pepper the intertoobz:

And when things went well, the feeling of perpetually standing in a tropical greenhouse was tolerable. But when things didn’t go well, which was not infrequent, I became a walking distillation column. (But I didn’t collect and drink the condensate as described in the novel “Dune”.) Because the VB shirt kept this water from soaking my outer layers, I was never in danger of hypothermia, but waiting for the water to diffuse back into my skin was never pleasant.

I can see using a VBL at night for sleeping on a long expedition to keep my bag dryer on really cold nights, but it's not an option for me while I am moving, in the Northeast's high humidity, at non-arctic temperatures. It's not simply a matter of "regulating outer layers" - that's an extremely simplistic way of analyzing this.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I am not really is disagreement with Mr. Skukura. I think you are simply not understanding my posts, his position on the use of VBLs, or maybe both?

"For high aerobic activities like running, skate skiing, or alpine touring (AT) racing, I find it almost impossible to avoid sweating and therefore VBL’s are probably inappropriate in this context." A.S.

High aerobic is the key phrase here.

 

[Tim Seaver]

If you are hiking aerobically you're probably not going far enough for it to matter.

That's a very interesting statement coming from someone who doesn't hike much in the winter, much less have any idea of what type of activities I engage in. That old saying about assumptions keeps drifting into my head.

Google is your friend, as they say.

 

[DougPaul]

"This is fairly easy during steady, low aerobic activities like hiking, snowshoeing, mountaineering, ski touring," - AS

"Steady, low-aerobic activities like hiking, snowshoeing, mountaineering, and ski touring are most conducive to the use of VBL because your heat output is consistent and can be managed easily. " -AS

Not necessarily. The temp has to be low enough that you can dissipate your heat output without sweating.

I will sweat when hiking or ski touring if the temp is 20F or higher (stripped down to my baselayer). Thus there is no way I can use a VB without overheating under these conditions because the VB will reduce my heat loss.

Pulling quotes from some supposed authority out of context does not necessarily make them true under all conditions. Perhaps AS does not produce as much heat as I do--if so, he could use a VB under conditions that I could not.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

VBL gear hasn't seen much popularity since I first used it in 1992 on Denali, mostly because it's pretty uncomfortable. Do a search around the web, you will find it's not a real hot seller. Comments like these pepper the intertoobz:
I can see using a VBL at night for sleeping on a long expedition to keep my bag dryer on really cold nights, but it's not an option for me while I am moving, in the Northeast's high humidity, at non-arctic temperatures.

IMO, VBs are mainly useful in the NE for hands, feet, and in sleeping bags on longer trips. (Not needed for weekend trips...)

I have used K-boots which are effectively boots with built-in VBs and had warm, wet feet and a friend has used them (plastic bags) to good effect in her leather XC boots.

Two hikers from my college outing club did a long (1 or 2 week) winter jaunt on the Long Trail. They started with one 8 or 9 inch loft down bag and one 6 inch loft polyester bag (no VBs). Before long, the down bag had less loft than the polyester bag. Presumably a VB would have prevented this.

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

IMO, VBs are mainly useful in the NE for hands, feet, and in sleeping bags on longer trips.

Agreed - I should have been clearer that I was referring to clothing when I said "VBL gear", not a sleeping bag liner - from my experience the bag liners are definitely worth it for expeditions.

...and my apologies to Remix if I unintentionally butchered this thread with this little side-trip.

 

[Billy]

Tim,

After you get a handle on how to properly regulate your layers, thus allowing you to be able to more effectively hike in winter ( link 1 , link 2 ), perhaps you could spend some time brushing up on your photography skills.

 

[Gremlin]

Although I am not paticularly 'sweaty', I find two membranes (windstopper + Gore-Tex too much. I find the breatheablity is no longer sufficient. I think this would be even worse with garment that don't breathe as well as G-Tex, such as Marmot Precip. JMO.

 

[JacobH]

I am also among the "high moisture" group (seriously I sweat if my heart rate goes up at all). Conditions have no effect. Usually I have to bring extra gear just to swap out the wet stuff with the dry stuff.

I definitely appreciate the suggestion to try a wind layer between the wicking and insulating layers. I had not thought of trying that before.

 

[summitseeker]

I recently purchased a Mountain Hardwear Chocklite Softshell through Departmentofgoods.com.

It is a very, very thin shell. I wear a moisture wicking North Face t-shirt, an EMS longsleeve that has 5% wool, and the Chocklite when I am really cranking out some heat. I like this set up better than fleece as an outer layer because snow so often gets stuck to it and then melts.

I have had great luck with the powerstretch fabric. Mine is also a Mountain Hardwear but I know Marmot and some other companies make this "bipolar" fleece. It is very smooth and pretty wind resistant on the outside but a very warm and comfortable fleece on the inside.

I hope this helps,

Z

 

[Remix]

I found the Marmot DriClime at sierratradingpost.com---if you sign up you get a 30% discount-- not bad. Anyhow, its called a "Windshirt jacket", confusing the matter. Marmot says it wicks as a baselayer; a couple of reviewers said it works well as a base or midlayer.

 

[DougPaul]

I found the Marmot DriClime at sierratradingpost.com---if you sign up you get a 30% discount-- not bad. Anyhow, its called a "Windshirt jacket", confusing the matter. Marmot says it wicks as a baselayer; a couple of reviewers said it works well as a base or midlayer.

It is a nylon wind shell with a thin insulating layer inside (similar to a baselayer in thickness and feel). It is often too hot for me and too steamy unless it is windy or cold enough. (I have one.)

Doug

 

[Remix]

It is a nylon wind shell with a thin insulating layer inside (similar to a baselayer in thickness and feel). It is often too hot for me and too steamy unless it is windy or cold enough. (I have one.)

Doug

When you say nylon, to me that means it does not breath at all. I guess I'm going to find out, but are you saying the fabric does not let moisture through to the upper layers?

 

[Maineman]

I think you'll find the nylon to actually "breathe" pretty well. I wear my driclime in cold temps with just a t-shirt and I find it regulates quite well, there are mesh pit vents and i find I can dry myself out quite easily. I used it as my only "warm" jacket on my PCT thruhike and it performed very well. I highly recommend using a tshirt underneath vs a long sleeve to help keep your temp regulated as you add layers.

 

[dave.m]

Nylon (or polyester like Pertex) breathes much better than a fabric with a waterproof/breathable.

But you're right, nylon breathes less well than fleece/pile. More to the point, it blocks wind.

IMO, there are two things going on, both related. The more important to me for these garments in the super cold is blocking the wind next to the skin. Under normal cool to cold conditions, I want super wind permeable layers under my shell. This way, as I hike and start to over heat, I can dump heat (and moisture) quickly by opening up the vents like my pit zips. This is why I strongly prefer old fashion pile to fleece. This is the core idea of the Buffalo System's Pertex and Pile approach and I'm entirely sold until.....

... It gets really, really cold. There comes a point (road riding it happens at higher temps than BC skiing/hiking) when I don't want wind getting to my torso. In those cases, having a more wind resistant layer right next to my core helps. I still control heat by controlling the outside ventilation in the system but when I open up the outside vents, I don't go from overheating to freezing. When I'm cycling, I wear a wind resistant Ibex wool softshell over light t-shirt and under pile. For super cold weather skiing/hiking, I put my Pertex windshirt over long john shirt and under pile (with a bigger shell on top of that).

It has to be cold enough for this approach to work for me.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/index.html

Another material that is promoted as an outer layer is Cotton Canvas

Yes I understand "cotton kills" but, in the right environment, it appears to work well. Alas, New England is probably not that envioronment. I tried a cotton canvas sock with my hammock last winter as a way of reducing my insulating layers by promoting a microclimate...it was not successful. I think the humidity and comparatively warm winters in New England make a cotton canvas outer layer less practical here..

PS:
Dave, your SVEA priming write-up was invaluable to me when when I started winter backpacking. I used a bit of twisted up TP wrapped around the priming pan and an eyedropper to pull some gas out of the reservior rather than fire paste. The SVEA was one of my best backpacking purchases.

 

[dave.m]

Tom, it's very gratifying to hear that something on the old web page has been helpful to somebody. Very hard to be a Svea, eh?

Someday, I'm going to write a personal "things that work" essay. The Svea will be on the list (along with Rottefella 3 pin bindings, the Opinel knife and MegaMid).

 

[dave.m]

(thread drift alert) Really wonderful knives. Very light. Amazingly tough. I gave a #8 to a bud who works as a carpenter/general contractor with the order to "break this knife". In nearly a year, he's had the blade bent to 45 degrees and it just won't break. The locking mechanism locks up with no wobble.

For use in the woods, I've found that copious amounts of vaseline and/or mineral oil will help keep the joint from getting stiff from water. Lot's of tuning tips (worthy of another thread entirely).

They also lend themselves to being modified. Here is a #8, a #9 (fits my hand well) and a #10 side by each. I'll start another separate knife thread later this week....


opinel-set by Pinnah, on Flickr

 

[jfb]

I was wondering how many people use a dedicated wind stopping base layer with the special fabric AND a shell for really windy conditions. These shirts seem to be expensive and rarely go on sale. I don't want to buy a wind stopping fleece mid-layer because I already have way too much fleece.

I've found that one wind-stopping layer is enough and it works best as the outer layer. Wearing a wind-stopping layer of nylon or polyester between a base layer and insulating layer underneath an outer shell traps too much moisture in the base layer.