Wind Stopping Base Layer Advice

[Remix]

I've found that one wind-stopping layer is enough and it works best as the outer layer. Wearing a wind-stopping layer of nylon or polyester between a base layer and insulating layer underneath an outer shell traps too much moisture in the base layer.

That may well be my experience...but I do know in high winds and cold my shell "leaks" and I can get a bit chilly. Since I am overinvested in mid-layer fleeces, I though I would look for a base layer solution. From alot of responders it sounds like I may put this on over the base layer when I get above the trees instead of leaving it on while going up.

 

[Remix]

PS looking forward to knife thread especially sharpening and legal issues about carrying blades over 4inches in cars in the Northeast.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

(thread drift alert) Really wonderful knives. Very light. Amazingly tough. I gave a #8 to a bud who works as a carpenter/general contractor with the order to "break this knife". In nearly a year, he's had the blade bent to 45 degrees and it just won't break. The locking mechanism locks up with no wobble.

For use in the woods, I've found that copious amounts of vaseline and/or mineral oil will help keep the joint from getting stiff from water. Lot's of tuning tips (worthy of another thread entirely).

I'm another Opinel user.

They also lend themselves to being modified. Here is a #8, a #9 (fits my hand well) and a #10 side by each. I'll start another separate knife thread later this week....


opinel-set by Pinnah, on Flickr

I'm another Opinel user, and have been for about 2 years. Excellent knife.

 

[DougPaul]

Another material that is promoted as an outer layer is Cotton Canvas

Yes I understand "cotton kills" but, in the right environment, it appears to work well. Alas, New England is probably not that envioronment. I tried a cotton canvas sock with my hammock last winter as a way of reducing my insulating layers by promoting a microclimate...it was not successful. I think the humidity and comparatively warm winters in New England make a cotton canvas outer layer less practical here..

Cotton is actually a very good outer shell material in very cold temps--ie in places like Antarctica. (Actually, as long as the temp never gets above 0F is probably good enough.)

Cotton's problem is that it soaks up water readily* but if it is cold enough, there is never any free water for it to soak up. It breaths pretty well.

* There is a reason towels are made of cotton...

60/40 (nylon/cotton) and 65/35 (dacron/cotton) shells used to be popular for NE winter hiking in the pre-waterproof-breathable era. (One carried a separate rain shell.)

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

Anyone ever have or use waxed cotton? If it was used by sailors, it must have been fairly weatherproof.

Waxed cotton is as the name suggests, cotton impregnated with a paraffin based wax, woven into a cloth. Widely used from the mid-19th century to the mid-1950s, the product which originated in the sailing industry in Scotland, became widely used by many for waterproofing. It is now replaced by more modern materials but is still used by the country sports community.

Oh, and if anyone needs to re-wax their Barbour...

 

[Gremlin]

I have a Ventile anorak (Black's Stormpruf) that needs no waxing. It was one of the first waterproof/breatheable fabrics.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I have a Ventile anorak (Black's Stormpruf) that needs no waxing. It was one of the first waterproof/breatheable fabrics.

Very cool material. Interesting to see it's still being used in high-end Early-Everest-Era-replica parkas. Way stylie.

 

[DougPaul]

I have a Ventile anorak (Black's Stormpruf) that needs no waxing. It was one of the first waterproof/breatheable fabrics.

Ventile is a tightly woven long-fiber cotton. The cotton swells when wet to make it waterproof. It was used for wind-proofs by many of the early British polar expeditions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventile

Doug

 

[jfb]

That may well be my experience...but I do know in high winds and cold my shell "leaks" and I can get a bit chilly. Since I am overinvested in mid-layer fleeces, I though I would look for a base layer solution. From alot of responders it sounds like I may put this on over the base layer when I get above the trees instead of leaving it on while going up.

Experimenting with different clothing combinations should eventually lead you to something that works. Another option would be to get another shell (and pants) with Primaloft (or similar) insulation. At treeline, you remove the wind shell and put on the insulated shell.

 

[DougPaul]

Another option would be to get another shell (and pants) with Primaloft (or similar) insulation. At treeline, you remove the wind shell and put on the insulated shell.

While this is likely to work, it will be heavier than one shell and an insulating jacket (fleece, polyester (Primaloft, etc), etc. Also, insulation that is bonded to a wind/water blocking layer takes longer to dry out than insulation that has a free airflow.

Legs have a somewhat different set of issues because it is much harder to change leg insulation than central body insulation and because the heat dissipation pattern is different.

I typically wear a polyester long-john baselayer with military surplus uniform pants made of serge wool. (A tightly-woven hard-surfaced wind-resistant fabric with a thickness similar to that of jeans.) Army? Marine? I don't know but the fabric is comfortable directly against my skin. The wool is also water resistant. (Wool is the original soft-shell fabric...) To dissipate more heat, I can skip the long johns or pull them up over my knees. (Another trick for a warm day is to wear a boxer baselayer as a "short john".) If it gets extremely windy or cold, I add side-zip waterproof-breathable (eg Goretex) overpants.

This works for me--others have other systems that work for them.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I'll chime in here having winter hiking, skate skiing, and winter cycling experience. In all three cases, moving at a reasonable pace will make me sweat. I can offer this:

Cycling in winter, for below freezing, I add nitrile gloves under the cycling lobster-style gloves. Effectively these are a VBL, as they keep the insulating gloves dry. Makes riding home (from work, I rode in today) more pleasant because my lobster mitts are not wet to start out. I have accumulated a variety of layers over the years of doing this (next month, if I manage 50 miles, it will be the 216th consecutive month with 50+ miles (18 years)) and can dress for pretty much anything. My cutoff for the 1-hour commute to work is about 10 degrees. Below that, I need to wear ski goggles and a nose mask and there is just too much, uh, discharge ("snot rockets") for this to be practical. My favorite garment here is a neoprene cycling jersey over a single wicking tank top. Heavy tights over shorts, and neoprene booties. For temps in the 40s, I'm good with a LS jersey and a windbreaker plus light booties and leg warmers. Full-length zippers very handy here.

For skate skiing, well, the energy expended skiing uphill is equal to or surpasses cycling (since I use more muscles, my LT is higher skating - around 184 versus 172 on the bike, out of a rough maximum HR of 190). Skating also has less wind chill because I'm not going quite as fast. I will add a vest or windbreaker if a long downhill is coming my way. I tend to wear a mid to heavy weight cycling jersey with a full zip - forgoing the wind layer except possibly a vest if really cold. Been skating for ~15 years, less in the years I was working on my W48...

For hiking in winter, I usually wear a single layer pant (MH softshell), plus the boots+socks described recently elsewhere. I often wear the same wicking tank top, a short sleeve EMS Techwick 100 shirt, and arm warmers. This lets me vent heat by rolling the arm warmers down. Because there is little to no wind on the way up, I can easily soak a bandana (buff, actually) several times where I have to wring it out (learned to twist it between hiking poles to keep my gloves dry.) Often I am not wearing any gloves, or if really cold, the same nitrile gloves under mittens. If wearing light gloves, I plan to go through several pairs. I also have at least one change of shirts that I plan to use, in addition to the reserve one in case I get in trouble. I will, above treeline, wear a hard shell with generous pit zips. Zippers allow me to control the breathability. I have only been doing this for 5 winters (low 100s 4Ks in NH), far less than many of you. Wind chill in the trees is negligible so the shell doesn't come out here unless it is possible not to be in contact with falling snow / snow-laden trees. I very rarely wear what could be considered an insulating area, like a fleece or softshell jacket. I may, above treeline, but often the hard shell stays packed if I do. I have never worn a HRM hiking, so I can only guess at the HR during a long steady climb, but it is probably slightly lower than cycling. I'd like to get some better pants with full side zips, or a least 1/2 length zips for dumping heat.

In all three cases, there is a fine line between "hard enough to stay warm" but not so hard as to sweat, but often that requires going unnaturally or impossibly slow, or wearing so many layers that I have to stop and change them too many times. It's more practical when solo than when in a group.

ETA: for completeness, when I do go ice fishing, which isn't often, perspiration is never a factor

Your experience may differ from mine.

Tim