Windproof/water-resistant layer question

[Toe Cozy]

So in the whole layering for winter hiking scheme, do most people wear their water/wind resistant layer all the time? I feel really silly asking this question, but I keep podering this...if you're in the snow it's gonna get on you and you'll get wet therefore you'd want that layer on all the time. However, that layer also tends to hold moisture in even when it's "breathable", which can get pretty hot and sweaty, even on a chilly day I'd think. Help me out here, oh experienced winter hikers!!!!

Thanks!

Tryin' to gear up for winter!

Toe Cozy

 

[peakbagger]

I tend to wear my full side zip gore tex pants and start out with a goretex jacket with pit zips most days in the winter. Within a few minutes I have warmed up and, I throw the jacket in the pack and pull down the side zips on the pants. If it gets breezy or I stop, the jacket get put back on. I find that on most days, as long as I am hiking, even with a breeze, a standard poly pro layer on the skin is all I need. (this includes a light weight balaclava on occasion).

 

[Toe Cozy]

Am I understanding you? On most winter days, like even when it's 10 degrees out you only wear a poly pro layer and then the gore-tex stuff that gets unzipped or comes off???? That's it? That's your layering system? Whoa....you must be a furnace! Amazing! I'm envious. I took a nice easy stroll up to Hamilton Falls in Jaimaca, VT and I had various layers on. It was 46 degrees out! Yes, I did get nice and warm going uphill, but, not sweaty. Going downhill and on the flats I was glad to have the light silk bottoms, long pants, synthetic t-****, long sleeve poly shirt and my Mountain Hardware lightly lined wind jacket...plus a hat. And light gloves! Oh man, I'm never gonna make it winter hiking.

 

[spencer]

I usually sweat through whatever I'm wearing so I get wet anyway. So, I usually start with a fleece (if it's really cold) until I warm up and then strip to just a light polypro layer like peakbagger. If it's not super cold, I just start out in the skin layer and suffer through the first few minutes. I don't like to stop right off the bat to change layers.

I carry an extra skin layer so when I get to the top I can put something fresh and dry on.

spencer

 

[John S]

Hey, T. Co., it’s really true! Most of the time you will make enough heat to get by with minimal layers as long as you are moving. Exceptions are when it is very cold, very windy or you are traveling among snow laden-trees. In those cases, you likely will want some protection but not necessarily anything heavy. Just bring the layers; it won’t take long to figure out what’s needed at various times. My basic winter outfit is precip pants, usually unzipped to the knees, over my regular summer shorts and long johns. Up top, it’s a light layer or two and, if windy or snowy, a light nylon top with a hood (keeps the snow dumps from the trees off my neck). If that's not enough, I’ll add a fleece pullover. I also keep a down jacket handy for stops. There is a difference between ascending and descending, however. I usually wear the layers I added near the top far longer on the way down than the point at which I put them on.

Hope to see you out there some time this winter! There is a lot of fun just waiting to happen!

 

[Rick]

Toe Cozy, I do similiar as everybody else here states, though I usually wear running tights and a polypro zip- t-neck shirt with either my goretex jacket or a windshirt over it until I get to treeline. I do perspire a lot (I'm the type to break out in a sweat when I yawn....)

My wife, on the other hand, does not. She keeps everything on - midweight fleece pants and shirt over a silk base layer and then goretex over that. Even though we are doing the same activity, afterward, she will be warm and DRY with very lttle perspiration. Go figure. Of course she is always cold. I am always hot.

I am positive that as you increase winter hiking, you will find a comfortable niche.

 

[Sticks]

For me as a base layer I wear power dry underwear tops and bottom (mid weight) and then a fleece vest over that on top and a wind shell for the pants. I find this to be very comfortable even hot at times depending on the hike. Putting on or taking off your hat will also greatly affect how your body temp reacts. I tend to generate lots of heat so this layering works well for me.
If it is very cold and or windy I will add another layer maybe another power wicking fleece or put on my Mountain Hardware breathable jacket. It is also windproof and have worn this typeof layering in temps minus 23 degrees without the windchill and been nice and warm.
Keep in mind that everyone's layering system is a personnel choice and you will need to find out what works best for you. Just make sure you bring enough of the layering, you can always take off layers but if you can't add layers if you don't have it to add.
Don't forget to keep your toes and head warm as well. I have found that my toes get much colder than the rest of my body and if my toes are cold I am done for the day. I may need to get some plastic boots this year. Hey Santa, you reading this thread, size 10 please.......

I am sure you will get more feedback as this forum has some of the best advice you can get anywhere.

Happy Trails

 

[Toe Cozy]

Thanks and a few more ?s.

Thank you, thank you!!! It really is great to be able to have a comfortable place to ask such basic questions and get helpful, friendly, encouraging answers.I really appreciate it. I think that the hiking/winter clothes I current own will certainly do the trick for starting out. I was thinking I was gonna need to buy all sorts of new special winter clothes. But I think I can layer well with what I've already got. However, I do think I'll need to get different boots. I have a real problem keeping my feet warm even in the house once summer is over! The boots I have now are Vasque Sundowners, womens size 11, and I can fit a liner and a light hiking sock in them and that's it. Any thicker combination leaves me absolutely no wiggle room for the old toe's. I don't think I want plastic boots at this point, but maybe a stiffer pair of leathers that are big enough for some serious socks. Anyone have suggestions about this? Any thoughts on traction devices would be appreciated too.

Is it normal to have a difficult time falling asleep at night because of trying to mentally figure out what the best pieces of gear might be for you and what you've got and what you need to buy and if you can justify spending the $$???

Thanks again.

 

[spencer]

TC,

I started in Vasque Sundowners and they were fine for a while on day trips. But my feet got pretty cold anytime I stopped moving. they don't do well overnight either unless you are willing to keep them in your sleeping bag with you. I now use Vasque Alpines (they aren't much warmer than Sundowners, although I have plenty of room for socks) on day trips or Koflach Degres on multi-day trips.

Stiffer boots aren't necessarily going to help you b/c they usually still aren't insulated. There are a whole bunch of good winter boots like Columbia Bugaboos or whatever they are called. IMO, a better option without spending much money is to get some Sorel or Kamik type boots. They are pretty cheap (I see them in Campmor for around $60) and super warm (usually rated for -40). The liners come out and can be replaced, giving very long lives.

Traction devices... well, there are all kinds of things out there. I have used instep crampons (4 or 6 points and not very comfortable to walk on for me) and full crampons (10-12 points). I have never used any of the city sidewalk oriented things like yaktrax (sp???) or others, although there has been quite a bit of info about them on this site.

I always carry crampons with me but often don't need them. If you are wearing snowshoes, the crampons on them will get you by most of the time. One thing to think about is crampons don't fit too well on Sorel/Kamik boots. Although I think I've seen some posts over the years about people who have made them work.

If you search the site for 1) boots and 2) crampons, you will find a plethora of good information. All the smarts in northeast hiking and climbing reside right here on VFTT...

good luck!

spencer

 

[John S]

I don’t know much about the high-end leathers that are suitable for winter but know you can get by quite comfortably in the Columbia Bugabootoo or Sorel type boots. Both are under a $100, often substantially so. I wore the Columbias last winter and was warm and comfortable. If interested in those, I’d recommend a model with 200-g. insulation (minus 25) vs. the thicker 400-g. I got the thicker ones; later, the initial good fit got a little sloppy as the insulation compacted. I think that would be less of a problem with thinner insulation. Also, It would be good to drop a toe warmer in when trying them on.

Many people swear by the Sorels, which have removable felt liners.

Though the soles are flexible, both can take crampons. A strap-on model such as the Grivel G-10s would be perfect, especially if you can find them with flexible adjusting bars. The wide model may be necessary for the above type boots.

 

[Toe Cozy]

Hmmm...very interesting. I have a pair of Sorels for other outdoor stuff, sledding, shoveling, snow-blowing, etc. But they are really sloppy on my feet and I just couldn't imagine walking far in them. Warm as heck, though. I'll have to check out other sizes, styles, brands of that type of boot and see about them. My always cold feet are feeling happy about that idea! Excellent!

Hey...how come all you folks aren't out hiking today???? It's 11:00 a.m., shouldn't we all be hiking up some mountain or other? I'm making 4 different homemade pizzas for a small pizza party with friends tonight...that's my excuse!!!

 

[spencer]

TC,

sounds good, do you deliver? I wish I were out hiking, but I'm trying to finish a big project I've been working on for 2.5 years...

spencer

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I was thinking I was gonna need to buy all sorts of new special winter clothes. But I think I can layer well with what I've already got.

You can also get good--not great-- inexpensive clothing at a salvation army store. Look at label. in general, synthetics and woll ore good. Don't expect to make a fashion statement, though.

I do think I'll need to get different boots. I have a real problem keeping my feet warm even in the house once summer is over! The boots I have now are Vasque Sundowners, womens size 11, and I can fit a liner and a light hiking sock in them and that's it. Any thicker combination leaves me absolutely no wiggle room for the old toe's.

Tight boots will quickly lead to cold feet, and maybe frostbite. Tight boots cut the circulation which lets teh feet get cold. You will probably be warmer with a thinner sock than with a thicker one.

Sorells: I've found sorells to be tiring if you have to climb anything steep. The soft soles have you walking on your toes, which is more tiring than using the whole foot. Still, I've used them quite a number of times with success.

Inside brewing beer on this cold (+34F) rainy day.

 

[spaddock]

I wouldn't be phased by being cold on a test hike at this time of year. I find at this time of year your body isn't used to the cold so it feels colder. If it was this temperature in March I'd be wearing shorts and calling it a heat wave.

Plus at this time of year the dampness seems to suck the heat right out of me as opposed to the dryness of January and February.


-Shayne

P.S. I got a new puppy this week, that's my excuse for not hiking, next week I'm heading back to the Santanoni's!

 

[JimB]

All this info is good. I second Pete's salvation army tip. I've found a down coat, TNF polypro shirt with a zippered front, many wool shirts, bib winter pants, you name it for little or nothing. I recently scored a Columbia Challenge series jacket for my wife with a zip-in fleece jacket for $12.00. Garage sales are great in the summer also. I've found lots of good skis, backpacks, books, you just have to develop an eye for being frugal when you enjoy many different activities. For some of my 'tween season trips where there isn't enough snow cover for my backcountry ski boots, I wear a pair of Herman survivors from Walmart. They were around $50.00 and have sympatex(a waterproof membrane) and thinsulate. They fit my crampons and snowshoes and are acceptable when it's not too cold, yet there is still a lot of mud.

 

[Toe Cozy]

Pizza & beer

Okay, Pete delivers the beer I deliver the pizzas and we all bring our gear for show and tell!

 

[spaddock]

It's funny how you can agonize between a choice of gear but once you've made up your mind and come to a decision that piece of gear is the best in the world. All other gear (even the other stuff you were considering) doesn't even come close....

-Shayne

 

[Neil]

As Spaddock says, once you've bought the gear you use it, adapt to it, get to know it thoroughly, rely on it, and finally, love it. And Shayne, I still haven't bought a down jacket! I'm going to the Sewards this w/end and will meditate intensely on that very subject.

 

[spaddock]

I'm heading down too Neil. Not sure where yet. Did the Sewards a couple of months back. Mised Seymour though.

Funny you mention the down jacket. Although I bought the Cygnus I haven't gotten attached to it yet, it still has the tags on it. I'm really wondering about the MH Sub Zero Parka... more weight but extra length in the front and lots of pockets for storage. The clincher might be my mom loves shopping in the states and would probably pick it up for me as a Christmas present!

Enjoy your hike.

-Shayne

 

[the starchild]

test gear and learn your body on short nearby dayhikes

hello,

i usually wear very little in winter while moving with a pack. this past weekend in the whites i was mostly just in my long sleeve 1st layer while hiking up below tree line with temps around 30F. my body makes ALOT of heat and, atleast while moving, its only the wind that makes me cold. my hiking partner was in a t shirt for a lot of the time as well, and she gets cold easily. a wind proof 1st layer would be great as it'd be plenty warm even if unzipped with no wind and remain warm if a wind starts to kick up.

a good thing to do is just take lots of hikes nearby or even around your 'hood and test out different layers. if your out for a day hike, stuff your pack with extra gear and just try out different combo's and then you'll have a much better idea what to take and how your body reacts to cold when you take longer trips.

i generally believe if you start a hike feeling warm you are over dressed. I always start cold so that i do not have to stop and peel off a layer 10min up the trail. i also always have my down vest in a h2O proof bag quick and handy for stoppping for a snack, view or anything.

also, as with sleeping at night, what you are eating and drinking make as big a difference in your warmth as your gear. your body needs fuel for your furnace!!!!
hope this is useful!