Winter Camping Revisited

[DayTrip]

I think if I camped exclusively on the ground in winter I would go with a bag. I guess i want to emphasize that I use a quilt because it's what I had for hammocking and can't justify the cost of buying a bag when the quilt solution hasn't failed me yet. I don't think winter is the best place to figure out if it will work for you. On the bright side, if you buy a cold weather quilt this year and it doesn't work you will be able to resell it next winter for close to what you paid to some impatient fellow who can't wait 8-10 weeks.

OK. You really had me thinking quilt. As I mentioned my max low temp would be in the 0-10 deg F range so layering is an option, either with my down pants and jacket and/or a 40 deg down REI bag I have which is pretty small. I'm seriously considering a conversion to a quilt for Summer camping too so maybe I'll hold off on my experimenting until the weather heats up.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I use my summer quilt underneatch with a z-rest in the sleeve of my JRB BM bridge hammock with a heavy quilt down to about 10 deg F. My 12'x10' tarp is configured in a closed end winter set-up. I also have a set of heavy base layer just for sleep/camp. Due to the bridge shape, I get a very tight fit between the underquilt with the hammock and the z-rest doesn't move into the sleeve.

As I am sure you know, hammock, UQ/TQs, and tarp set-ups are very make/model specific.

That set-up might be able to go further but I like a very comfortable margin. Single digits or less, I have a -20 deg F winter bag in the hammock, the z-rest, and use the heavier quilt underneath. The winter bags has room to expand in the bridge. The integrated hood, chest baffle, and zipper baffle REALLY prove their worth when it is seriously cold. I keep hoping to hear the trees cracking but I bailed out on a trip about a decade ago and haven't had the opportunity since.

I proved out these set-ups car camping before I did it for reals. And by that I mean I did and an out and back and then set up next to my car. the next morning, I did another out & back. Might seem silly but I needed to do that for the peace of mind to go into the woods alone in the winter.

I don't know my pack weight. I carry a SVEA 123R, real food, a saw, and a duraflame log, hahahaha. I load up two packs about a 30 - 70 split and put the heavier one in the pulk. If the incline or decline get too steep, I swap the packs. I think I could leave the pulk attached to pack and portage the kit in "two runs" if need be, but I tend to haunt the valley trails and avoid the summits.

 

[Mike P.]

Looks like if you are winter camping as in backpacking, a couple of things should be considered:

A.) While accidents can happen anywhere, anytime, as discussed in SAR threads, the margin of error in winter is thin and the colder it is, the thinner the margin. Gear that holds liquids or fuel needs to be fool proof, you need to know your stove and if needed fix it in the field, same with snowshoes or crampons if your destination means you can't limp back (100 Mile Wilderness in Winter for example and Western and AK or the like)

B) you are really serious about this - meaning, you should consider laying down serious cash and get a down bag or a porter or a sled (steep trails and sleds, are you part yak?)

The hard part as we learn is how to make the transition from 3 to 4 season feasible financially (Knowing that Daytrip is past this but others in the future may find useful) Can I extend my three season 20 degree bag with an overbag or wool blanket or wearing oodles of clothes without compressing loft? (Down booties a piece of gear that is always good) Starting the longer trips in less severe climate like driving south for a few days in VA where it's unlikely you will find weather to overwhelm your 20 degree bag, extra clothing and other "winter starter" gear.

As I believe we mostly do here, planning your trip well and being willing to change it if looks dangerous. (A VA winter trip might, depending on location, be more likely to have snowpack that melts in a 35 degree rain that causes flooding and makes streams you crossed on the way in impassable instead of a -25 night. (Like we had here at Christmas,) While in January here, for now, we are more likely to have a -30 night than that type of rain in northern NH, VT, ADK or ME. While possible, we are more likely to see snowpack melt in a large rain storm in Nov, Dec. March and April. (Yes we have snow in October it's usually not enough to add a significant total to a rain event & by May, usually only snow is above 3000 or 3500 feet. (It might still make unbridged mountain streams tough to cross or in places with deep drifting, say the Great Gulf or Panther Gorge)

I probably will not get to the winter White Mountain backpacking level as I'd likely be solo. Through Scouts I inherited an old Mountain Hardware Polorguard, made in the USA synthetic bag that I was able to determine it was likely a -20 or more bag and was lightly used, and dates to the 1995-2005 period . I can get it in a garbage and compress it so I can tie some rope around the top. It's perfect for winter car camping but would require a rocket scientist to make it fit a backpack you would like to carry. (I NEED A YAK)

 

[briarpatch]

There was earlier discussion in this thread on quilts with sewn footboxes. I am trying to picture what they are. I am envisioning that they would be similar to fulling unzipped a sleeping bag and using it as a blanket with my feet in the short unzipped section at the bottom of the sleeping bag.

Just weighted my old mid 1990s Gergory (believe it was a Robbinson, ~70l) backpack and it was 7 lbs.

 

[JoshandBaron]

There was earlier discussion in this thread on quilts with sewn footboxes. I am trying to picture what they are. I am envisioning that they would be similar to fulling unzipped a sleeping bag and using it as a blanket with my feet in the short unzipped section at the bottom of the sleeping bag.

Pretty much. The fully closed part of the quilt usually comes up to about your knees/thighs.

 

[DayTrip]

I proved out these set-ups car camping before I did it for reals. And by that I mean I did and an out and back and then set up next to my car. the next morning, I did another out & back. Might seem silly but I needed to do that for the peace of mind to go into the woods alone in the winter.

I was going to give it the "no guts, no glory" approach and just push deep into the wilderness, let it get dark and start unpacking crap and see if it works...

Seriously, I know you're not being preachy and I realize there needs to be testing. My first adventure will be on my back deck. The next few probably will be as well as I dial stuff in. The summit sunrise will be the culmination of a progressive build up in trial and error. I do that with all my stuff. I try out layers and gloves when I'm just doing my local walks, go out in awful weather on purpose to identify weaknesses in my set up and skills, etc. I even built a pulk a few years back and did a dry run with it on Zealand Rd when I did Zealand for the Winter list.

 

[hikerbrian]

My dad and I went 'no guts, no glory' for our first winter backpack in the late 90's. We both had crap synthetic '0 degree' (in quotes for a reason) sleeping bags. It was -12 that night in January. We soaked through most of our clothes on the approach, got cold enough while setting up that we barely ate, and neither of us slept. 0/10, wouldn't do. It's amazing any of us live through the stupid s*** we do early on.

 

[JoshandBaron]

My dad and I went 'no guts, no glory' for our first winter backpack in the late 90's. We both had crap synthetic '0 degree' (in quotes for a reason) sleeping bags. It was -12 that night in January. We soaked through most of our clothes on the approach, got cold enough while setting up that we barely ate, and neither of us slept. 0/10, wouldn't do. It's amazing any of us live through the stupid s*** we do early on.

My first solo backpacking trip I headed up to Shoal Pond in -5° with 20° gear. I was afraid to go to sleep because I didn't think I would wake up. Thankfully my fire skills were sufficient.

 

[Rhody Seth]

As promised here's a video of my first attempt from last week. I had all sorts of issues but that's why I kept close to my car and didn't fret too much.

 

[Mike P.]

Great videos Seth, may you get a clear blue sky someday! Loved the other videos and the Franconia Ridge sky looked very dramatic for a cloudy day.

 

[jfb]

My recommendation: get a down bag from a reputable company rated to -20 F. Expect to pay $700-$900. Start making peace with that expense now.

That's what I ended up doing. After trying to live with a bag that was rated at -20F but didn't keep me warm at zero. We had a saying at work that there was never time to do a job right, but always time to do it twice.

 

[Rhody Seth]

Great videos Seth, may you get a clear blue sky someday! Loved the other videos and the Franconia Ridge sky looked very dramatic for a cloudy day.

Thanks Mike. I've had my fair share of great weather days so I take whatever comes. I'm actually glad it snowed during that hammock session because it made clear all the things I need to improve.

 

[ChrisB]

As promised here's a video of my first attempt from last week. I had all sorts of issues but that's why I kept close to my car and didn't fret too much.

Wow Seth, what a great video. Really well done. Thanks for posting.

As I watched it I reflected on my many nights of winter tent camping in varied conditions and why I preferred tenting:

* Snugness of the tent enclosure as wind blew thorough the forest
* Pleasant sound of snow hitting the fly and periodically sluffing off
* Increased warmth the tent provided to a barely adequate sleeping bag
* Ability to keep all my kit out of the weather and within easy reach.

I salute your hardiness my friend but I'll take a tent in winter!!

On the subject of using a stove/cooking a tent: I'm so old I've owned expedition tents that had zippered cook holes in the floor!

Please keep us posted on your ongoing adventures.

 

[jfb]

As promised here's a video of my first attempt from last week. I had all sorts of issues but that's why I kept close to my car and didn't fret too much.

Mt first (and only) attempt at igloo camping didn't turn out very well either. During the night it started to rain and the igloo collapsed around 0230. We were around 5300 ft and walked back to the trailhead in the dark.

 

[Rhody Seth]

Wow Seth, what a great video. Really well done. Thanks for posting.

As I watched it I reflected on my many nights of winter tent camping in varied conditions and why I preferred tenting:

* Snugness of the tent enclosure as wind blew thorough the forest
* Pleasant sound of snow hitting the fly and periodically sluffing off
* Increased warmth the tent provided to a barely adequate sleeping bag
* Ability to keep all my kit out of the weather and within easy reach.

I salute your hardiness my friend but I'll take a tent in winter!!

On the subject of using a stove/cooking a tent: I'm so old I've owned expedition tents that had zippered cook holes in the floor!

Please keep us posted on your ongoing adventures.

Thanks Chris! Funny, I've never been a particular hardy backpacker - I've very often been cold on my trips regardless of shelter or season so I also find it a little amusing that I've moved into winter hammock camping. All those points you listed are valid. For me I like the openness of sleeping under a tarp. And even though this last trip was a true learning experience and I made plenty of mistakes, I also started to really dial in the comfort and warmth aspects of backpacking that have eluded up until now. Removing the insulated pad and switching to the under quilt has made the promise of super comfy hammock sleep a reality for me.

Now I just need to work on my tarp. It's worked well for me in the rain previously but I never thought about how snow could blow under and through the tarp so easily. I'm actually glad it snowed - it pointed out the weaknesses of my setup.

My buddy and I are talking about a potential Bond traverse in February so I'm exciting to give it another shot. He's a seasoned hammock camper so I'm looking forward to learning from him.

 

[maineguy]

There's a guy on you tube sintax77 that has some unbelievable trips to the Whites posted. In one of his more recent trips, he does a 3 day Pemi loop in winter. He is a hammock camper.

 

[egilbe]

There's a guy on you tube sintax77 that has some unbelievable trips to the Whites posted. In one of his more recent trips, he does a 3 day Pemi loop in winter. He is a hammock camper.

Also search for Shugemery's videos on youtube. He hammock camps and he's had a -40 nights a time or two. He's pretty entertaining too, for a circus clown.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Now I just need to work on my tarp. It's worked well for me in the rain previously but I never thought about how snow could blow under and through the tarp so easily. I'm actually glad it snowed - it pointed out the weaknesses of my setup.

Doors, panel pulls/pole mods, and tensioners will improve your situation. Trying to deal with knots in the middle of the night to retension a sagging tarp is no bueno. The panel pulls will prevent a snow load from caving in the sides of the tarp and give you a lot more room to ride out any weather. In extreme cold I usually ditch the tarp all together and just use a sock. Any snow that falls isn't going to be heavy enough to do much of anything and it saves a lot of time making and breaking camp. Plus the tarp blocks the sunrise and the breeze I need to vent the sock. Watching the sun come up from the warmth of your down cocoon then promptly going back to sleep as the trees pop around you is an experience.

 

[Rhody Seth]

There's a guy on you tube sintax77 that has some unbelievable trips to the Whites posted. In one of his more recent trips, he does a 3 day Pemi loop in winter. He is a hammock camper.

Thanks I'll check him out!

Also search for Shugemery's videos on youtube. He hammock camps and he's had a -40 nights a time or two. He's pretty entertaining too, for a circus clown.

Oh yeah, Shug's my go-to guy. I was watching so many of his videos last year that my wife got me one of his T-shirts.

Doors, panel pulls/pole mods, and tensioners will improve your situation. Trying to deal with knots in the middle of the night to retension a sagging tarp is no bueno. The panel pulls will prevent a snow load from caving in the sides of the tarp and give you a lot more room to ride out any weather. In extreme cold I usually ditch the tarp all together and just use a sock. Any snow that falls isn't going to be heavy enough to do much of anything and it saves a lot of time making and breaking camp. Plus the tarp blocks the sunrise and the breeze I need to vent the sock. Watching the sun come up from the warmth of your down cocoon then promptly going back to sleep as the trees pop around you is an experience.

Thanks for the sock recommendation. Some guys on a hammock forum recommend those as well so I'm gonna get on that!

 

[DayTrip]

Finally got cold enough here in CT for a trial run on "stacking". It went pretty well. I wore my usual base layers and socks I'd have hiking, a heavyweight Minus 33 fleece zip up top, down booties, down pants, synthetic jacket, liner gloves and a fleece balaclava. I used my MH Lamina 21 deg F synthetic bag, an Exped Downmat HL inflatable pad inside of a Sierra Designs bivy bag, all on top of a Thermarest Ridgerest closed cell pad on my deck.

It was 15 deg F and pretty windy and I was very warm even without cinching the hood on the bag or my jacket. I even unzipped the sleeping bag a bit at first because it was too warm initially. I spent about 2 hours outside laying on my side, back, etc and was very comfortable the whole time. The only snafu I had was that I inflated everything inside at 70 deg F so my pillow and pad lost a lot of loft with the temperature change. I could sense a subtle cooling to everything as a result but it wasn't bad considering how much loft I lost. The incessant flapping of the cover on my grill and the barking of the neighbor's dog finally convinced me to head inside. But overall I was pleasantly surprised. I run very cold and I think this set up would be fine at 10 deg F and with some tweaks I could see it easily working to 0 deg F, especially in a tent versus just laying out in the open in the elements. Although there was certainly something to be said for staring up at the stars on a cold night.

I guess the next step is to see how this all fits in the pack and dig out my liquid fuel stove for some practice.