Winter day hike pack contents
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NewHampshire
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I don't really know if it makes a point, but I can think of two examples of people who had full overnight winter camping gear available to them, and they still perished.
Honestly, I don't carry the sleeping bag, tent, stove and such (though by habit I carry a small "survival" kit year round.) I have thought about adding one of THESE as well as one of THESE . I have also built some soda can Alcohol stoves that are ultralight and easily fit in a pack. I guess the tough part will be determining when all this gear is appropriate. For example, Jen and I spent Saturday walking along the Wilderness trail. With such a HEAVILY traveled trail is it realy necessary for all this gear when the odds are you will have 30 people pass you by.
Brian
Honestly, I don't carry the sleeping bag, tent, stove and such (though by habit I carry a small "survival" kit year round.) I have thought about adding one of THESE as well as one of THESE . I have also built some soda can Alcohol stoves that are ultralight and easily fit in a pack. I guess the tough part will be determining when all this gear is appropriate. For example, Jen and I spent Saturday walking along the Wilderness trail. With such a HEAVILY traveled trail is it realy necessary for all this gear when the odds are you will have 30 people pass you by.
Brian
Chip
Well-known member
I went through that and decided that better "2fer's" were a good down parka with hood, fleece pants and an extra change of capilenes and wool socks. All those I can use regularly as well as layering up for a night in the woods in my VBL bag trying to start a fire with wet wood while melting snow with my esbit.Neil said:
Happy thoughts !Neil said:
sleeping bear
New member
Agree with what was said about the knowledge needed to use the gear and keep yourself alive.
I call my shovel the "11th essential" and usually carry it in winter. The main purpose of it being that I could easily excavate or build a snow shelter. My thinking is I could make a snow shelter, put on my parka and warm pants, put handwarmers in my boots and sit on my pad. To sleep I would lie down on my pad and backpack and wrap up in my tarp inside my snow shelter. I suppose I might be able to sleep in those condidtions. I'm pretty sure with that set up I'd make it to see the next day. I also always carry a lighter and am capable of making a fire from wet wood in the snow.
Hikerfast's analysis of how lightly we (in general) take winter activities is right on. On the other hand, I think people used to cut it a lot closer than we do now, which provides us with a false sense of security. Our gear is a lot better, so we come back from a decent hike raging hungry and that's about it. We walk a fine line between having an awesome time and sheer disaster.
Skinny people don't make it because they have no insulation.
I too would like to see research suggesting that a heavier load causes more accidents. It's not more dangerous, it's less comfortable. Stop lying to yourselves!
... oh, and add "candle" to my list...
I call my shovel the "11th essential" and usually carry it in winter. The main purpose of it being that I could easily excavate or build a snow shelter. My thinking is I could make a snow shelter, put on my parka and warm pants, put handwarmers in my boots and sit on my pad. To sleep I would lie down on my pad and backpack and wrap up in my tarp inside my snow shelter. I suppose I might be able to sleep in those condidtions. I'm pretty sure with that set up I'd make it to see the next day. I also always carry a lighter and am capable of making a fire from wet wood in the snow.
Hikerfast's analysis of how lightly we (in general) take winter activities is right on. On the other hand, I think people used to cut it a lot closer than we do now, which provides us with a false sense of security. Our gear is a lot better, so we come back from a decent hike raging hungry and that's about it. We walk a fine line between having an awesome time and sheer disaster.
Skinny people don't make it because they have no insulation.
I too would like to see research suggesting that a heavier load causes more accidents. It's not more dangerous, it's less comfortable. Stop lying to yourselves!
... oh, and add "candle" to my list...
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NewHampshire
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DougPaul
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A snowshoe can also be used as a shovel in an emergency.sleeping bear said:
A ski isn't quite as versitile...
Doug
sardog1
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hikerfast said:
Or you could look in my pack.
As one small example: Some of the "after-action" news coverage from Lafayette includes references to the importance of the insulating pad that the subject carried with him. Its importance was made plain to me years ago when I was being indoctrinated in things montane out West. Don't see nearly enough of them being carried around here, IMO.
BorealChickadee
New member
sardog1 said:Or you could look in my pack.
As one small example: Some of the "after-action" news coverage from Lafayette includes references to the importance of the insulating pad that the subject carried with him. Its importance was made plain to me years ago when I was being indoctrinated in things montane out West. Don't see nearly enough of them being carried around here, IMO.
I carry several chunks of an old blue closed cell pad in my pack during the winter. I use it anytime I sit down during a break. I'ts pretty amazing how much heat we can lose through our butt and mine is quite well insulated.
And through our feet. I remember being told by a ranger that you need to carry two pieces. One for your butt, one under your boots and a reflective blanket to wrap yourself up in if you had to sit out a night.
DougPaul
Well-known member
One of my packs uses a rectangle of closed cell foam as a framesheet. All I have to do is pull it out.sardog1 said:
I often use an oversize internal-frame pack and line it with a closed cell foam pad. (Makes a great hold-open frame...
) The current closed cell foams are too flimsy, but some of the older stuff is stiff enough to fold over and make into a magazine splint--I have successfully splinted an injured knee well enough that the victim was able to walk most of the way out. When we met up with the Waterville ski patrol, they didn't feel the need to do anything more to stabilize the knee while they sledded the him to the doctor.Don't forget that you can sit on your pack or put your feet in it if you have to bivy. And booties can help save the feet during the bivy.
Doug
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Lawn Sale
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In the winter my daypack is usually under 25 pounds, which is pretty light by my standards
I always carry:
a 15° down sleeping bag
GTX Bivy sack with waterproof base
at least one freeze dried meal, along with other snacks
a Gigapower, new cannsiter, Ti pot & spork (total weight 16 oz)
spare headlamp
Down Jacket
spare upper base layer
GTX overpants
GTX hard shell
Overmits
Along with the usual assortment of balaclava, gloves, hat, face mask, and usually some spare socks in case mine get wet.
I also bring with me the knowledge and experience of having built numerous fires with wet wood and in the winter, so I know I could do so again.
I have no fear of the woods in winter, but won't get stupid about it. For me anything below -20°F without or -40°F with the wind chill is about my comfort limit. I would and have gone lower, but it really depends on who I'm with at that point.
I always carry:
a 15° down sleeping bag
GTX Bivy sack with waterproof base
at least one freeze dried meal, along with other snacks
a Gigapower, new cannsiter, Ti pot & spork (total weight 16 oz)
spare headlamp
Down Jacket
spare upper base layer
GTX overpants
GTX hard shell
Overmits
Along with the usual assortment of balaclava, gloves, hat, face mask, and usually some spare socks in case mine get wet.
I also bring with me the knowledge and experience of having built numerous fires with wet wood and in the winter, so I know I could do so again.
I have no fear of the woods in winter, but won't get stupid about it. For me anything below -20°F without or -40°F with the wind chill is about my comfort limit. I would and have gone lower, but it really depends on who I'm with at that point.
forestgnome
New member
preface: this is definately not directed toward any particular person...
If a hiker is at any greater risk of injury due to the "extra" weight of a sleeping bag and pad, then they are far too weak to be hiking in the mountains. Of corse, there is a point at which pack weight will increase risk of back injury, but face it, basic safety items such as bag, pad, coat, etc. don't add up to all that much weight. The idea of this as "extra" in such winter conditions, instead of standard weight, is IMO just plain ole foolish. No amount of flaming will change that
Happy Trails
If a hiker is at any greater risk of injury due to the "extra" weight of a sleeping bag and pad, then they are far too weak to be hiking in the mountains. Of corse, there is a point at which pack weight will increase risk of back injury, but face it, basic safety items such as bag, pad, coat, etc. don't add up to all that much weight. The idea of this as "extra" in such winter conditions, instead of standard weight, is IMO just plain ole foolish. No amount of flaming will change that
Happy Trails
TomD
New member
I post a lot on The Lightweight Backpacker (TLB) at www.backpacking.net.
This question, in one form or another, especially for winter hikes and camping has been an ongoing debate for several years. Most of the posters don't have the severe winter weather you guys have back East, even in the Sierra, it doesn't seem to be as nasty. I tend to agree with the "take enough to stay alive if caught out overnight" crowd ("benighted" as they say). However, it's hard to convince many people to take what they really should have. If I know I'm not far from the car, and other people are around, I don't bother with everything I probably should have-just enough to be comfortable for a few hours, if I got stuck. A shovel and emergency blanket usually come along if I'm alone, which I've only done a couple of times and not all that far from civilization.
This question, in one form or another, especially for winter hikes and camping has been an ongoing debate for several years. Most of the posters don't have the severe winter weather you guys have back East, even in the Sierra, it doesn't seem to be as nasty. I tend to agree with the "take enough to stay alive if caught out overnight" crowd ("benighted" as they say). However, it's hard to convince many people to take what they really should have. If I know I'm not far from the car, and other people are around, I don't bother with everything I probably should have-just enough to be comfortable for a few hours, if I got stuck. A shovel and emergency blanket usually come along if I'm alone, which I've only done a couple of times and not all that far from civilization.
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John H Swanson
Active member
Ah,.... to build a fire
Wet wood is different than in the rain....though the latter is more difficult but possible too.
It's all in the preparation.
1) Start the preparation process at home. There are many good firestarters but my preference is cotton balls soaked in wax. They burn hot, with a high (4-6") flame and longer than those soaked in vasiline. They store well. Also, I prefer an adjustable flame lighter on a string arond my neck to keep it dry enough and warm. A second in the pack as back-up.
2) collect, sort, and break-up at least a 1-2ft pile of various sizes of wood before you start. Select the drier wood from under trees, lower dead branches on the trees, etc. Peel the wet bark off some of the wetter wood. Store collected wood in a dry place (put it under your pack or a pine tree). Do not colllect too much big (over 2" diameter wood.) Of course you need some, but most of the wood needed in the start is matchstick size, pencil size and 1" diameter. Do all of this before starting the fire because a wet wood fire requires alot of attention and you won't have time to collect more wood until you have a mature fire with coals.
3) pick a good spot. Shelter from wind and dripping branches (and rain if appropriate). Provide a good foundation - fires on snow do not work. One of the challenges. Plus give yourself a good spot next to it for sitting, laying down etc.
4) Building the fire is essentially the same as with dry wood - positioning the wood for good airflow; adding wood on top to catch from the flame below....I cant teach you this in a posting.
5) The flame will dry the wood on the outside of the fire so in general, you over feed the fire (put more wood on it than necessary) to get with the outer wood starting to dry. Basically you are cooking the wood first then burning it. of course there is a balance. All wood must be air spaced and the extra wood can't collapse the active part of the fire.
6) You need more patience with wet wood. You need to give the fire time to do it's "work" When my wet wood fire fail it's because I'm forcing the process and doing too much moving around of the wood.
7)In the beginning keep an small open space in the front of the fire to add your "good wood" to help the flame if it starts to struggle or if you are really having a problem, a second cotton ball. The good wood is some of the drier small best pieces you hold on the side. Obviously you need enough of these to get the fire going but you need to keep some in reserve. When I'm done with a fire there is usually a 5" diameter pile of pencil sized sticks I have not used. For wet wood, the good wood is a combination of matchstick and pencil sized wood.
Most novices fail before they even start with inadequate preparation.
bikehikeskifish said:The "MacGyver" factor
Second mention of "can you" -- I can't. How do you?
Tim
Wet wood is different than in the rain....though the latter is more difficult but possible too.
It's all in the preparation.
1) Start the preparation process at home. There are many good firestarters but my preference is cotton balls soaked in wax. They burn hot, with a high (4-6") flame and longer than those soaked in vasiline. They store well. Also, I prefer an adjustable flame lighter on a string arond my neck to keep it dry enough and warm. A second in the pack as back-up.
2) collect, sort, and break-up at least a 1-2ft pile of various sizes of wood before you start. Select the drier wood from under trees, lower dead branches on the trees, etc. Peel the wet bark off some of the wetter wood. Store collected wood in a dry place (put it under your pack or a pine tree). Do not colllect too much big (over 2" diameter wood.) Of course you need some, but most of the wood needed in the start is matchstick size, pencil size and 1" diameter. Do all of this before starting the fire because a wet wood fire requires alot of attention and you won't have time to collect more wood until you have a mature fire with coals.
3) pick a good spot. Shelter from wind and dripping branches (and rain if appropriate). Provide a good foundation - fires on snow do not work. One of the challenges. Plus give yourself a good spot next to it for sitting, laying down etc.
4) Building the fire is essentially the same as with dry wood - positioning the wood for good airflow; adding wood on top to catch from the flame below....I cant teach you this in a posting.
5) The flame will dry the wood on the outside of the fire so in general, you over feed the fire (put more wood on it than necessary) to get with the outer wood starting to dry. Basically you are cooking the wood first then burning it. of course there is a balance. All wood must be air spaced and the extra wood can't collapse the active part of the fire.
6) You need more patience with wet wood. You need to give the fire time to do it's "work" When my wet wood fire fail it's because I'm forcing the process and doing too much moving around of the wood.
7)In the beginning keep an small open space in the front of the fire to add your "good wood" to help the flame if it starts to struggle or if you are really having a problem, a second cotton ball. The good wood is some of the drier small best pieces you hold on the side. Obviously you need enough of these to get the fire going but you need to keep some in reserve. When I'm done with a fire there is usually a 5" diameter pile of pencil sized sticks I have not used. For wet wood, the good wood is a combination of matchstick and pencil sized wood.
Most novices fail before they even start with inadequate preparation.
Thanks... Now I'm curious about building a fire on snow -- you state "fires on snow do not work" but sleeping bear says "am capable of making a fire from wet wood in the snow."
I was aware of the fire starters described earlier, and it makes sense that they aid in drying the wood.
Most places I've hiked do not allow campfires, legally. Of course, if your life is in danger I'm guessing they won't punish you too badly.
Tim
I was aware of the fire starters described earlier, and it makes sense that they aid in drying the wood.
Most places I've hiked do not allow campfires, legally. Of course, if your life is in danger I'm guessing they won't punish you too badly.
Tim
DougPaul
Well-known member
You have to make a pad (wet wood will do) and build your fire on top of it. Otherwise the melting snow is likely to put your fire out.bikehikeskifish said:
Doug
Chip
Well-known member
Another good multi-use thing to carry is a length, maybe 6' to 10', of a medium guage wire. This can be used for repairs, trapsbikehikeskifish said:
, bindings, etc as well as to make a mesh pad to build a fire on.whcobbs
New member
Hi Chip--
I've slept soundly at 0 d F in the following, each time in an open front AT leanto, once in a high wind blizzard at Wilson S in MA. The point of this approach is a body heat system, intended to assure that all clothing is dry by morning without recourse to fires, stoves, etc. So its mostly synthetics. Some of the stuff is custom or home sewn*. This is all from memory:
Silnylon/Pertex Bivy/bag cover* 12 oz
Primaloft Parka 34 oz
Primaloft pants*, Pertex, 14 oz
Primaloft booties*, 10 oz
Primaloft mittens (insulated stuff sacks)*
Polarguard bag, 2 lb (35 d F) North Face
polypro bike jersey 11 oz
polypro bike tights 9 oz
Pertex wind shirt, hooded*
silnylon windsuit, hooded, Dancing Lite Gear
disposable poly gloves vb
silnylon stuff sacs, vb for feet
polypro long johns+top, 12 oz
neoprene socks
polypro liner socks
OR fleece mitten liners
gortex mitten shells*
polypro bike balaclava
blue foam pad + evazote pad
The vapor barriers on hands, feet, and body and the stretch layers over them are really necesssary to make this system work. It is very uncomfortable above freezing. For below 0 d F, one must either dig down in the snow or carry more insulation.
Walt
I've slept soundly at 0 d F in the following, each time in an open front AT leanto, once in a high wind blizzard at Wilson S in MA. The point of this approach is a body heat system, intended to assure that all clothing is dry by morning without recourse to fires, stoves, etc. So its mostly synthetics. Some of the stuff is custom or home sewn*. This is all from memory:
Silnylon/Pertex Bivy/bag cover* 12 oz
Primaloft Parka 34 oz
Primaloft pants*, Pertex, 14 oz
Primaloft booties*, 10 oz
Primaloft mittens (insulated stuff sacks)*
Polarguard bag, 2 lb (35 d F) North Face
polypro bike jersey 11 oz
polypro bike tights 9 oz
Pertex wind shirt, hooded*
silnylon windsuit, hooded, Dancing Lite Gear
disposable poly gloves vb
silnylon stuff sacs, vb for feet
polypro long johns+top, 12 oz
neoprene socks
polypro liner socks
OR fleece mitten liners
gortex mitten shells*
polypro bike balaclava
blue foam pad + evazote pad
The vapor barriers on hands, feet, and body and the stretch layers over them are really necesssary to make this system work. It is very uncomfortable above freezing. For below 0 d F, one must either dig down in the snow or carry more insulation.
Walt
Chip said:
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DougPaul said:
That makes sense. I've seen bonfires on lakes in the winter while ice fishing, along with the half-submerged and re-frozen remains of a fire, so I know it could be done. I've never tried to make one myself. I have used a LNG heater/stove and a Coleman lantern to heat bob houses.
My fire-making skills are limited to charcoal grills, fireplaces, and wood stoves, where a propane torch makes an excellent (and low-smoke!) fire starter.
Tim
erugs
New member
I've just started reading a book by survival instructor Cody Lundin called "98.6 Degrees: The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive." Have any of you read it? Seems that fear is one of the biggest elements in surviving a situation or not, so an important key is carrying the right balance of gear and attitude.
DougPaul
Well-known member
A little heavy for the backcountry...bikehikeskifish said:
Paraffin soaked corregated cardboard, vaseline soaked cotton balls or dryer lint, esbit tablets, etc work and are much more portable. You can also make fuzz-sticks with a knife and an appropriate piece of dry wood. Liquid gasoline is lousy for starting wood fires.
Not very good at this--I normally use a stove and almost never a fire.
Doug
