Winter Hiking & Snowshoe Advice

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If you stay at the highland center (including the bunkhouse which is pretty cheap) you can use their gear for free-- snowshoes, insulated boots, and microspikes (at least I think they have spikes).they are starting to run hikes to 4ks as well as lower peaks. These are hikes you just show up for. Seems like a good option for checking out your interest. Personally, I love winter hiking!
 
If you stay at the highland center (including the bunkhouse which is pretty cheap) you can use their gear for free-- snowshoes, insulated boots, and microspikes (at least I think they have spikes).they are starting to run hikes to 4ks as well as lower peaks. These are hikes you just show up for. Seems like a good option for checking out your interest. Personally, I love winter hiking!

Great idea! :cool:
The bunkhouse is pretty neat!
 
Metal is generally more likely than plastic to ice up or for snow to stick. You can end up with 20lb snowshoes...

True, but I haven't found it to be a problem with mine. Even the plastic shoes (at least the ones I've tried) have metal frames, and the steel cables that make up the deck of my shoes are plastic coated.
 
I have a pair of the US army magnesium snowshoes in my "arsenal". I have not noticed any difference in snow accumulation. The reason they are surplus is the original nylon bindings are real bad, bascially unusable. With a proper set of bindings ( I recomedn Iverson bindings http://www.iversonssnowshoes.com/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=2) they are fantastic powder shoes. I will take them over any of the most recent designs for powder but they are almost useless on the majority of the 4 K trails as they have a much wider track than most of the current designs. One of the reasons I retired a pair of tubbs was that their width was slightly wider than than the current brands. A couple of inches doesnt sound like much for width but what happens is that the outer edges of the snowshoes get caught on the "lip" of the snowshoe track making it hard to maintain a good gait. Alternatively the inside edges rub against each other.

The other general comment aobut climbing snowshoes is make sure the shoes you buy have binding that pivots relative to the shoe. The MSRs use two pivot pins on each side of the binding and many others use a steel pins that runs from one side of the shoe to the other. What you want to avoid is a less expensive binding that is riveted to the snow shoe deck or depends on a lost nylon strap. Basically you should be able to put the snow shoe on and pick up you foot with the soles of your boot horizontal. The snowshoe should hang vertical with the front part of your foot sticking out the back of the snowshoe deck. This puts the traction where it does the most good. when climbing. This feature isnt as important for cross country and many recreational shoes dont have this feature as it adds cost.
 
MHobbs,

Great question which will spur a variety of answers. Here's my take.

BOOTS - I think there are 3 basic solutions. 1) Plastic double boots with removable liners. 2) Sorel-style pac boots with removable liners. 3) Single leather boots with insulated full coverage gaitors and VB socks. Plastic double boots are the most common for good reason. They are supportive provide a solid grip in snow and work well with crampons (something you will need too) and are very warm. They are generally easy to deal to with logistically. On the downside, they can be rough on your feet if you hike on rock or dirt instead of snow. Sorel-style pac boots are a reasonable alternative. They don't provide good support and you have to use strap-on crampons. But they are warm. Very few people will argue these points.

Adding insulated gaitors (MEC still sells them) adds a significant amount of warmth to leather boots. This is very fiddly and generally requires that you reglue them on every season with Shoe Goo. Many people will argue this is not warm enough to be safe. As a Nordic skier who is forced to go this route with his ski boots, I feel safe down to about -10F using this approach. This brings up a larger point...

IMO, my suggestion is to think about boot warmth holistically and to consider all of your gear collectively to arrive at a go/no-go bottom temperature below which you will leave the woods. For me, this is -10F. I will simply pull the plug on a trip if there is a reasonable chance I will face temperatures below this. Nearly all of my gear starts to become inadequate at that point. Boots, yes. Also sleeping bag, mittens, possibly stove and so on. I've been to -15F on numerous occasions and know I can (or used to be able to) operate at that temp, but I now draw the safety line above that at -10F. I've pissed of good friends refusing to go on trips but I've never had black toes either and know people who have (they were wearing plastic double boots, temps were in the -15F to -20F range with high winds).

Getting back to the question of leather boots and insulated gaitors, I feel comfortable with this combination down to -10F. One modification is that I also use VB socks between my liner sock and wools socks at about 10F. This keeps my socks and boots dry from sweat and thus much warmer. An essential part of the system, imo.


SNOWSHOES - In the Whites, I think the decisions about snowshoes depends on your hiking goals. If you are limiting your winter hikes to places that receive a lot of traffic, then crampons are more important. I'm thinking here of things like Carter Notch via 19 Mile Brook, Hermit Lake via Lower Tuckerman Ravine. Crag Camp via Amphibrach and Spur. Grey Knob via Lowes. Crawford Path. Lafayette via Old Bridal Path. IME, the reality is that 9 days out of 10, snowshoes will not help on high traffic trails but crampons are essential. Yes, just after a deep snow, you need snowshoes. And in the spring when things go corn, you need them to prevent post-holing. But generally, crampons are much more essential.

As an aside, I suggest to new winter hikers that that they stick to well traveled routes, to increase the odds that somebody can provide aid should things go bad. But, that's a highly personal decision.

If you set your sights to less traveled locations, snow shoes or skis become essential for forward motion. Slogging sucks. But then, as a skier, I think snow shoeing sucks compared to skiing. Another reason I don't own them. If there's enough snow to need them, I'm skiing instead!!!

BTW, as a XC skier, I'm pretty ambivalent about the snowshoe vs post-holing debate. IMO, when I take skis onto a hiking trail, I recognize I'm entering a multi-use situation and as a result, I have no expectations. In fact, if the trail is remotely close enough to a road that hiker can get to it, I just expect that the hikers will destroy the trail for skiing. Boots, post-holes and snowshoes all drive the trails to a trench and the USFS and other land managers don't provide good signage telling people to stay out of ski tracks and even when they do (Greeley Ponds, Lincoln Woods area) the signs get ignored and it just doesn't matter because a few miles in, trails get so narrow that shared use means 1 trench any how.

Now... If I wanted to be snarky, I would suggest that a lot of the snowshoe zeal comes from people who suffer while carrying the heavy, underused and joyless things on their backs and since misery loves company, they want to ensure that everybody else hiking along trenched out trails while wearing crampons are also carrying the same heavy, underused and joyless snow shoes. My suggestion is to get some skis. When you ski fast enough, the crunch, crunch, crunch of sullen snowshoers creates the coolest Doppler effect!!! But, I really promised I wouldn't be snarky today so I won't say that. (ahem)

In all seriousness, if you're heading to places that aren't trenched out, IMO you really need crampons plus either snowshoes or skis.
 
BOOTS - I think there are 3 basic solutions. 1) Plastic double boots with removable liners. 2) Sorel-style pac boots with removable liners. 3) Single leather boots with insulated full coverage gaitors and VB socks. Plastic double boots are the most common for good reason. They are supportive provide a solid grip in snow and work well with crampons (something you will need too) and are very warm. They are generally easy to deal to with logistically. On the downside, they can be rough on your feet if you hike on rock or dirt instead of snow. Sorel-style pac boots are a reasonable alternative. They don't provide good support and you have to use strap-on crampons. But they are warm. Very few people will argue these points.
My experience differs in that all I ever use are 600g / -45 rated insulated, waterproof, leather/rubber boots (Columbia Ice Dragon IIs). No desire, want, or need for double plastics. If I camped out, then maybe. I also never use VB socks, but I do wear nitrile rubber gloves for the same effect. My feet do sweat, but they stay warm. I can see a possible benefit from wearing them. I am also not aware of very many people at all wearing double plastics. Most (maybe even all) of the grid hikers I know do not.
SNOWSHOES - In the Whites, I think the decisions about snowshoes depends on your hiking goals. If you are limiting your winter hikes to places that receive a lot of traffic, then crampons are more important. I'm thinking here of things like Carter Notch via 19 Mile Brook, Hermit Lake via Lower Tuckerman Ravine. Crag Camp via Amphibrach and Spur. Grey Knob via Lowes. Crawford Path. Lafayette via Old Bridal Path. IME, the reality is that 9 days out of 10, snowshoes will not help on high traffic trails but crampons are essential. Yes, just after a deep snow, you need snowshoes. And in the spring when things go corn, you need them to prevent post-holing. But generally, crampons are much more essential.
My experience differs also on crampons. I have been up 19MBT many times and have never thought about crampons. Microspikes, maybe. In fact, I've (apparently) earned a reputation for being anti-crampon, which I am not, but I just do not find myself using them hardly ever. My Tubbs Flex Alp 24s and MSR Denalis prior to that have more than enough aggressive traction. In fact, if I refer back to my TRs/TCs, I am exactly opposite - 9 out of 10 (or more) times I do not use crampons. 7 or 8 out of 10 hikes I may not even bring them. Above treeline in the Presis or Franconia Ridge - I will definitely bring them, and may even use them, but even there, it is not a given.

I would guess that the preference for double plastics goes hand-and-hand with the preference for crampons since the former works better with the latter.

I have seen the Carter Notch Hutmaster's girlfriend hiking up 19MBT in slippers.

Your experience may be different than mine or Dave's.

Tim
 
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This past weekend I used a pair of BC NNN boots for a hike up to Mt.Hale. Going downhill in the snowshoe bindings was somewhat interesting as the gravity combined with the binding put interesting pressures on my foot to a point where my pinky toe suffered a little bit.

What I am trying to say is that some boots might be better constructed to handle the pressures on the downhills while wearing snowshoes.
 
Another question, a handful of you have suggest the "MSR Denali Evo Ascent", I found these at EMS, I assume they are the same model?

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4085817&cp=3712723.3718184.3718194

If you read the product details it says good up to 180lbs. I'm a fat hiker at 237lbs. (Yes I am trying to lose weight). I can use these shoes up to 250lbs with the MSR Evo Snowshoe Extension Tails:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3664353

My question is, what happens if I don't use the extensions? Would my weight break the snowshoe or would I just sink into the snow deeper? Are all snowshoes rated for weight? Is this weight thing something I need to be concerned about when purchasing any brand/model snowshoes?

Also, I know it's the middle of Winter, but does EMS or REI put snowshoes on sale this time of year or will I need to wait until Spring to get a deal?
 
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In fact, I've (apparently) earned a reputation for being anti-crampon, which I am not, but I just do not find myself using them hardly ever.
I carry and use crampons when appropriate, but so far, I have done 104 Winter 4Ks WITHOUT them on my feet. It is not really my goal to do the entire W115 w/o them, but it could happen.

When you need them, you NEED them! :D
 
Another question, a handful of you have suggest the "MSR Denali Evo Ascent", I found these at EMS, I assume they are the same model?

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4085817&cp=3712723.3718184.3718194

If you read the product details it says good up to 180lbs. I'm a fat hiker at 237lbs. (Yes I am trying to lose weight). I can use these shoes up to 250lbs with the MSR Evo Snowshoe Extension Tails:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3664353

My question is, what happens if I don't use the extensions? Would my weight break the snowshoe or would I just sink into the snow deeper? Are all snowshoes rated for weight? Is this weight thing something I need to be concerned about when purchasing any brand/model snowshoes?

Also, I know it's the middle of Winter, but does EMS or REI put snowshoes on sale this time of year or will I need to wait until Spring to get a deal?

Yes, they dropped the DENALI from the name.

I am overweight and stayed with the TUBBS 8"x25" rather than move up to 9"x30". If breaking trail then, yes you just sink more. As far as I can tell the only difference between model sizes is the deck surface area. They don't use "better grades" of material and hardware within each model line.

Tim has posted on previous threads that he did not find a signifficant difference with the tails and the tails affect the center of gravity of the snowshoes.

If you plan on hiking the established routes to the typical peaks, then IMO you don't need the tails.

They do go on sale towards the end of the winter. Lots of on-line vendors though.
 
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My experience differs in that all I ever use are 600g / -45 rated insulated, waterproof, leather/rubber boots (Columbia Ice Dragon IIs). No desire, want, or need for double plastics. If I camped out, then maybe. I also never use VB socks, but I do wear nitrile rubber gloves for the same effect. My feet do sweat, but they stay warm. I can see a possible benefit from wearing them. I am also not aware of very many people at all wearing double plastics. Most (maybe even all) of the grid hikers I know do not.
You only dayhike and one can get away with a lot by only dayhiking. You take your gear into a warm place and dry it out over night before using it again. If you go out for a longer period, your gear will become damp and you are unlikely to be able to dry much of it out by the next morning.

There is also the issue of safety margin. After a day of hiking your boots will become damp. If you or one of your companions has an accident late in the day, will you be able to hang around overnight safely?

I have tried 3-season boots on a winter hike (temp ~15F)--they were ok while we were moving, but my feet began to chill if we stopped for any length of time. And I have warm feet. (Yes, I carried booties as a safety backup.)

Boots like the Ice Dragons may be fine if you keep them dry. (I tried a similar boot on a benign day and my feet seemed ok but that was an easy test. Unfortunately they had insufficient support for me and I had to retire them.) BTW, don't trust those temp ratings--what really counts is the temp at which you can stand around, not the temp at which you can be active in them.

If you use soft-toe boots, make sure that you don't cut off the circulation with crampon straps or snowshoe bindings.

Boots like K-boots are used in polar regions for a good reason--they are very warm and are the warmth is not degraded by moisture. (I still have a pair from my beginner days--a friend still uses hers occasionally.)

As mentioned earlier, I currently use double boots which are not only warm but have the advantage that the liner can be brought into one's sleeping bag at night to be dried out.

Doug
 
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EMS is starting to have snowshoe sales. In my experience, tails don't help all that much (MSR tails) and in fact throw the balance off a bit because they don't add area ahead of the pivot point. As for weight, 8x22, 8x24 or 8x28 (Flex Alp 24 XLs) are all fine for your size for most of the time. I tested my 9x30s (Tubbs, aluminum frame with cloth decking) against my Denalis 8x22s in a fresh 14" powder dump once behind my house and measured the depth of my tracks with very little difference in actual floatation. I am 6'3" 200# without clothes or gear. If I knew I was going to break trail in 18-24" (or more) I would think about bringing the tails.

Tim
 
The other part of winter hiking in snowshoes, aside from post holing and not knowing all conditions, is that the traction given by snowshoes helps. I have seen people make the mistake of getting snowshoes that are too long for the conditions we most often face in the Whites so agree with suggestions of going to a reputable retailer like EMS, REI, Kittery Trading Post for at least information and education. Then, if you decide to go with the less expensive, lower quality Yukons, you will have a better idea of what to look for in sizing, etc.

You won't be very comfortable if your feet are cold. Plan on that. Sometimes toe warmers can help. If you plan on usig your summer boots with thicker socks, as has been suggested, make sure your boots can accommodate. Tight toes are numb toes. The less expensive of the insulated boots are often heavier, so keep that in mind.

I love, love, love winter snowshoeing.


Doubt that you will be seeing any sales on the best of the snowshoes any time soon. I, too, have purchased former rental equipment at the end of a store's season, and they were fine.
 
If you read the product details it says good up to 180lbs. I'm a fat hiker at 237lbs. (Yes I am trying to lose weight). I can use these shoes up to 250lbs with the MSR Evo Snowshoe Extension Tails:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3664353

My question is, what happens if I don't use the extensions? Would my weight break the snowshoe or would I just sink into the snow deeper? Are all snowshoes rated for weight? Is this weight thing something I need to be concerned about when purchasing any brand/model snowshoes?
Weight ratings are pretty fuzzy. One issue is how likely one is to break the snowshoe--obviously, heavier hikers are more likely to break snowshoes (and crampons). But the other issue is the consistency of the snow. One can often bareboot on a hard packed trail, so any snowshoe will do there. At the other extreme, how far will one sink into fresh light powder? Heavier hikers and smaller snowshoes sink deeper, but how deep is too deep? Some hikers have a large pair of snowshoes for bushwhacking and a smaller pair for trail hiking.

Back in the "good old days" when I started this game, trails were often unbroken and one generally had to go in a party of 5+ or so to have the manpower to break trail and we used larger shoes, 13x28 flat bearpaws in my case. (That was small for the day--the heavier hikers used a larger size.) Now days, trails are often broken out pretty quickly so smaller snowshoes are far more practical then they used to be. (And skills like kicking steps uphill are disappearing...)

Also, I know it's the middle of Winter, but does EMS or REI put snowshoes on sale this time of year or will I need to wait until Spring to get a deal?
EMS just concluded a 20% off just about everything in the store sale. Just keep watching the stores and/or sign up for their email notifications.

Doug
 
I use them for sleeping in the winter as my feet are usually too warm during hiking but if it is nice option in case the temps plummeted way down.
 
Weight ratings are pretty fuzzy. One issue is how likely one is to break the snowshoe--obviously, heavier hikers are more likely to break snowshoes (and crampons). But the other issue is the consistency of the snow. One can often bareboot on a hard packed trail, so any snowshoe will do there. At the other extreme, how far will one sink into fresh light powder? Heavier hikers and smaller snowshoes sink deeper, but how deep is too deep? Some hikers have a large pair of snowshoes for bushwhacking and a smaller pair for trail hiking.
...

Doug

Actually, in my completely uninformed opinion, the "weight ratings" on snowshoes can be likened to the product from the south end of a north-bound bull.

I'm a "not small" individual, and am usually carrying 20+ pounds of junk in the winter. Which means that you look at these silly "weight rating" float charts and they tell you I need snowshoes that are 18 inches wide by over 3 feet long.

Yeah, good luck with that. Aside from being able to buy such a beast, it's completely impractical in the Whites.

I think these folks base these charts on 6 feet of fresh powder that no one has ever walked on, and if you sink in an inch, it's a disaster.

Buck up. In fresh snow, you're going in. The difference is whether you go in to mid-calf or to the waist. I've only ever used the MSR Evo Ascents (practically indistinguishable from the "Denali" line), and while I own the "extenders", I've never actually put them on. Maybe there were a couple of cases where it would have helped. And I've broken a fair amount of trail, alone, with a single partner, and with moderate-sized groups. Maybe if I'd had the "boats" recommended by the weight charts, I wouldn't have worked as hard in fresh snow. But if you're on a trail in the Whites, you need to deal narrow paths, intruding rocks and trees, and traction is actually more important than "float".
 
As far as snow shoes sizing is concerned, if in doubt take a look what F&G uses for snowshoes for rescues (I believe they look like these http://irl.bc.ca/Forestry Supplies/snowshoes-2.htm) Sherpa is long gone but they are still appear to be the standard for S&R folks. F&G go off trail routinely during rescues so these should be considered maximum flotation).

As many locals have found out one pair of snowshoes isnt enough, at least one pair for deep powder and one for hiking (plus a spare or two for company).
 
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My experience differs in that all I ever use are 600g / -45 rated insulated, waterproof, leather/rubber boots (Columbia Ice Dragon IIs). No desire, want, or need for double plastics.

We aren't that far off actually. I would consider boots of that kind to be a variant of the Sorel type pac boot, only with more support and with non-removable insulation. We are in total agreement in that I don't think that double plastic boots are mandatory for winter hiking. Very much so.

If I camped out, then maybe. I also never use VB socks, but I do wear nitrile rubber gloves for the same effect. My feet do sweat, but they stay warm. I can see a possible benefit from wearing them.

DougPaul hit the nail on the head exactly. It's on overnight trips where VBL socks become important as they help prevent boots from turning into frozen blocks of ice over night as sweat freezes. He's spot on about late afternoon cold feet too. VBL socks help with that too.

I am also not aware of very many people at all wearing double plastics. Most (maybe even all) of the grid hikers I know do not.

It's been a few winters since I've been to the high camps of the RMC but when I was doing that regularly, most people were in double plastics. I was one of the rare ones in leather and insulated gaitors. A few in Sorels.

My experience differs also on crampons. I have been up 19MBT many times and have never thought about crampons. Microspikes, maybe.

Again, we aren't that far off. There are crampons and then there are crampons. I prefer flexible strap-on 10 point trekking crampons for the Whites. I don't need front points at all. I will also use instep crampons on some trips. Flexible or hinged crampons allow a 3/4 or 1/2 shank leather boot to flex somewhat naturally. I won't wear rigid crampons for trail hiking.

My Tubbs Flex Alp 24s and MSR Denalis prior to that have more than enough aggressive traction. In fact, if I refer back to my TRs/TCs, I am exactly opposite - 9 out of 10 (or more) times I do not use crampons.

Hopefully the OP is taking from this that this is definite YMMV territory. My experience when ascending packed out trails is that cleated snowshoes are often faster than bare booting due to increased traction but I pay a huge weight penalty with the snowshoes, along with an unnatural gait. I find flexible, hinged crampons faster than either, again, assuming packed out trails.

I would guess that the preference for double plastics goes hand-and-hand with the preference for crampons since the former works better with the latter.

Clamp-on or step-in style crampons (suitable for Alpine style climbing and front pointing) require/assume the use of rigid plastic boots. Flexible or hinged crampons (mine are SMCs, no longer made but Stubai makes similar ones) can be used with leather or pac boots just fine. Just need to avoid over-tightening the straps and cutting off circulation.
 
As far as snow shoes sizing is concerned, if in doubt take a look what F&G uses for snowshoes for rescues (I believe they look like these http://irl.bc.ca/Forestry Supplies/snowshoes-2.htm) Sherpa is long gone but they are still appear to be the standard for S&R folks. F&G go off trail routinely during rescues so these should be considered maximum flotation).

As many locala have found out one pair of snowshoes isnt enough, at least one pair for deep powder and one for hiking (plus a spare or two for company).

You just made me feel better about having "a spare or two for company." Thank you.
 
Another question, a handful of you have suggest the "MSR Denali Evo Ascent", I found these at EMS, I assume they are the same model?

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4085817&cp=3712723.3718184.3718194

If you read the product details it says good up to 180lbs. I'm a fat hiker at 237lbs. (Yes I am trying to lose weight). I can use these shoes up to 250lbs with the MSR Evo Snowshoe Extension Tails:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3664353

My question is, what happens if I don't use the extensions? Would my weight break the snowshoe or would I just sink into the snow deeper? Are all snowshoes rated for weight? Is this weight thing something I need to be concerned about when purchasing any brand/model snowshoes?

Also, I know it's the middle of Winter, but does EMS or REI put snowshoes on sale this time of year or will I need to wait until Spring to get a deal?

Ask Dave Bear from page one about the Evo's as he uses them and is similar in stature so has experience with them.
 
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