Winter in the Whites and being prepared

[Maddy]

...and one more thing she needs to appreciate is how insidious hypothermia is. You start with a little shivering but don't realize that it can take over and render you incapacitated in a very short amount of time. The in not the time to come to the realization that your clothes and gear are inadequate.

You are right and a good friend to be concerned.
I say tell it like it is and if she is willing to read the book Not Without Peril, this might give her a real education.

On the other hand don't feel guilty because you can only say and do so much. In the end it's up to the individual to make the decision.

Personally, I think it's foolish to go up there with borrowed gear and no winter experience. Start slow and work your way up. What's the rush? The mountains will always be there.

 

[Chip]

No one should hike in the White Mountains in Winter, until they have made at least four hiking trips in the White Mountains in Winter.

I agree with this. Although it was far from my first winter hike, my first hike in the Whites was Monroe, Washington and Clay in December after about 3' of snow. Not too many people actually die. It's good to be prepared and all, and have the right attitude about turning back, but chances are she'll have a great time or hate it, but survive to tell you about it.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Seema - when I read your added comments that these two are likely in the early stages of a relationship, and he's resisting suggestions, my alarm meter zoomed to about 95 on a scale of 100.

 

[BF]

Many of the above posts focus on gear. Gear is certainly important, but skills are important too.
Doug

Such as walking all day in a pair of snow shoes or crampons for the first time. Changing out gear from snow shoes to crampons or visa-versa. Knowing when to change layers. Getting out of a spruce trap. To name a few.

Ok, lets say they go to Washington. More than likely that's another night out. Now what?

 

[sli74]

I think its ok to worry about a friend, I know I worried about you several times

Feels like ages ago, doesn't it. I am sorry I worried you, I was younger and slightly less averse to risk back then.

 

[giggy]

Hi Seema:

FWIW, before I knew about VFTT, the 48, etc.. I used to use Grey Knob as a winter base and really cut my winter teeth in that area. I had summited most of the pressies, franconia in winter well before lower peaks in NH and if I think if done right - there is no problem with this. With the 'safety" of the cabin, it s good area at learn to respect winter in the northerns.

The northerns are to be respected, but IMO, are also a good logical first choice to experience winter in the whites due to the cabin if they go with the right attitude of checking the terrain out and turning around if not comfy.

People can say this and that, but I recall it being an absolute no brainier about 200 feet up lowes after the quay whether it was a summit day or not when I was a complete green novice in winter...

if not, there is always treks to crag, and treeline on spur path, venturing to the perch, etc.

I recall getting used to weather up there and started working towards adams 4 and back to cabin one trip, then t -junction and back and then finally adams and then eventually adams and madison, etc..

way to learn is to get out there and experience the conditions little by little.

its all about pushing enough to gain experience and learn vs pushing too far and getting into trouble and I think 99% of the people out there know and do this right.

I have said this before - but for the amount of people that venture into the whites in winter, I think the number of "problems" is really low statistically.

 

[sierra]

My 2 cents. The terrrain in the northern peaks is lets say unforgiving and the learning curve can be steep. Proper gear is one component of a safe trip, but it is not the most imporntant. Hiking with a guide is ideal to learn, because they dont want you to die of suffer ( bad for business), hiking with someone you havent hiked alot with prior to a trip of this magnitude, is a roll of the dice imo. This guy may be great, but lets for the sake of your friends safety, he is hell bent on not giving up on any objective regardless of conditions and the trip becomes dangerous. At the very least, your friend should have the ability and smarts to turn around on her own and abort the trip, if she cannot do this she is at the mercy of her partner. I have climbed with many skilled climbers over the years, I once left a group of 4 (including myself) in whiteout conditions, wind chills around 50 below and getting worse because the manly men of the group would rather have died then give up, not me Id rather live thank you. If she is going to go and I where you. Id get a bottle of wine, sit her down with a map and compass. Talk to her about conditions, bail out routes ,compass bearings, trails and the notion that regardless of the drive of the group self preservation always wins out. Iknow many would never even suggest splitting off, the tinkham saga should be referenced when that augument comes up.
Idealy she needs someone to mentor her in the whites in the winter with steady progression of hikes and winter techniques, with a focus on safety, comlulating with a hike like the one she has planned. ok my 5 cents.

 

[sli74]

Hi Seema:

FWIW, before I knew about VFTT, the 48, etc.. I used to use Grey Knob as a winter base and really cut my winter teeth in that area.

I am actually less worried about this being her first real winter hike and more worried about her hiking in the Northern Presis when she very obviously is not properly equipped. Even the most seasoned winter hiker among us would be taking a crazy risk by not having proper boots, enough warm clothes, a warm enough sleeping bag and crampons, etc. You can have all the experience in the world and be in trouble with mesh and suede summer boots and a very poor traction device on those boots. Going to Gray Knob in below zero (if the weather is cold) with a 20 degree bag would be foolish for most of us but particularly for a tiny little girl who doesn't deal well with cold temps.

I also don't know her friend's philosophy on turning around and his tolerance for risk. I only know that she really trusts and respects him and will do almost anything to appear "cool" and "going with the flow" . . .

In the end I have come to accept that she is an adult and atleast she is going with an experienced winter hiker who she believes cares about her. I have gotten together a bunch of gear for her and given her a list of what I think are needed gear. I have also sent numerous emails telling her a lot of what i have learned over the years. I know she is a strong hiker and I am going to trust that her friend is going to watch out for their safety.

 

[sli74]

If she is going to go and I where you. Id get a bottle of wine, sit her down with a map and compass. Talk to her about conditions, bail out routes ,compass bearings, trails and the notion that regardless of the drive of the group self preservation always wins out.

I agree with most of what you are saying and I am lending her a map and will go over the area with her and tell her what I know about all the trails in the area. However, I have backed off a little with my concern because I don't want to push her away and make her feel like I am being judgemental. I would rather she continue to feel supported because she is more likely to take my words and advice seriously.

 

[sierra]

I hear you, it is a fine line between helping and being to overbearing. I always thought climbing mountains was just like life, you have to live it to learn from it. I wish her well.

 

[TrishandAlex]

I also don't know her friend's philosophy on turning around and his tolerance for risk. I only know that she really trusts and respects him and will do almost anything to appear "cool" and "going with the flow" . . .

Red flag red flag red flag!!!!!

 

[Maddy]

I am actually less worried about this being her first real winter hike and more worried about her hiking in the Northern Presis when she very obviously is not properly equipped. Even the most seasoned winter hiker among us would be taking a crazy risk by not having proper boots, enough warm clothes, a warm enough sleeping bag and crampons, etc. You can have all the experience in the world and be in trouble with mesh and suede summer boots and a very poor traction device on those boots. Going to Gray Knob in below zero (if the weather is cold) with a 20 degree bag would be foolish for most of us but particularly for a tiny little girl who doesn't deal well with cold temps.

I also don't know her friend's philosophy on turning around and his tolerance for risk. I only know that she really trusts and respects him and will do almost anything to appear "cool" and "going with the flow" . . .

I am very sorry that you have to worry about your friend for all the these very valid reasons. I cannot begin to imagine an "experienced" hiker bringing someone into this kind of terrain without proper gear and the knowledge required to use it. It boggles the mind. I don't envy you being in this position.
If you showed up so ill prepared to do the Winter Mountain Safety course that the AMC offers, you would not be allowed on the mountain. I took this course years ago and they made that very clear to us from the get go.
Same story with my Outward Bound course. They provided some clothing and gear, but you had best show up with what they had on the required gear list.
I will freely admit, I would not go anywhere with this "experienced hiker" after hearing this story.
I think his willingness to take someone who is not properly equipped on this hike is a great indicator of his "tolerance for risk."

It's one thing when you meet a stranger walking head on into danger and you warn them, but it's a very different problem when it's a good friend. I feel for you Sli. Hopefully it will all work itself out in the end.

 

[SherpaKroto]

I would feel a lot better if there was a 3rd person along on this trek. The NP's are a whole different world in winter: even if you know them well in the other seasons.

Can you suggest that they do a dry run with gear on a different peak, to get a sense of what to expect? If you and Brian could join them on a shakedown hike, that would be even better. I did a lot of gear shakeout on Mondnock when I got back into winter hiking. I got a lot of funny looks hiking up with a full pack, but I did learn a lot about some gear that I ended up not trusting.

It will probably all go well, and they will laugh at you for being a mother. Who cares? if something ever did go wrong you could never live with yourself if you kept your mouth shut.

I'll throw one out there: she will likely be more prepared than he will, and they will adjust their plans accordingly.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Red flag red flag red flag!!!!!

Agreed. Alarm meter inched up to 97/100...

 

[SherpaKroto]

Agreed. Alarm meter inched up to 97/100...

+ 1, maybe 98/100

 

[DougPaul]

Can you suggest that they do a dry run with gear on a different peak, to get a sense of what to expect? If you and Brian could join them on a shakedown hike, that would be even better.

A peak like Pierce via Crawford Path would make a much better introduction than the NPs. A relatively easy and protected approach with the last bit above T-line to get a bit of the flavor of being above T-line.

Mt Liberty would be another good one. Both offer tent camping if they insist on making a 2-dayer out of it.

Doug

 

[JimC]

Chill Out, Everybody

Everyone seems to be assuming the worst about this guy.

Assuming, I might add, on little to no information.

Little is KNOWN about this guy.

Before you condemn him, find out a little more information.

Geez!

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Everyone seems to be assuming the worst about this guy.

Assuming, I might add, on little to no information.

Little is KNOWN about this guy.

Before you condemn him, find out a little more information.

Geez!

What fun is there in that? Hell, I think we should just make something up about him to make it more entertaining. I mean.. after all this is the guy who left his partner to die on K2.

 

[giggy]

they will adjust their plans accordingly.

this is what will happen....I guarentee it.

 

[TEO]

Are things like not wanting to share a trip itinerary or wanting to be cool potential red flags? Yes. Is Pierce via Crawford Path a great intro to winter hiking? Yes. Would it be stupid of your friend to do a winter hike in uninsulated, improper boots, no traction devices, and no snowshoes? Yes. Would it be stupid to go without the proper clothing? Yes.

But, let's keep in mind that Grey Knob is only just over 3 miles from both Appalachia and Lowe's Store. Mt. Adams is under 2 miles from Grey Knob. Mt. Washington is a reasonable day hike away in good weather. And, though there's an ice bulge on Lowe's Path, the trails are non technical. If she's properly equipped, and has hiked the AT to boot, then she can handle some adventures and learning experiences.

It sounds like a fun trip to me.