Winter Jacket: How Much is Enough?

[Periwinkle]

My latest dilemma -- any and all insight appreciated....

I haven't much experience in winter hiking at elevation. I had hoped to start this year, but obviously Mother Nature has not cooperated. As my hopes for warmer weather dwindle, I'm considering upgrading to better gear and giving it a go anyhow.

My current set up is an EMS Primaloft short jacket under a Marmot Precip shell with a light fleece base layer. I love this set up on a nice winter day in the valley (lately, a nice day is about 15 degrees). I particularly like the fact that the pit zips line up on both the EMS & Marmot jackets.

Looking at winter hard shells, I've been put off by the $300 minimum price tags for a piece of gear I'm not sure I'm going to use a whole lot. I've found a few TNF jackets drastically reduced at a local shop. My big concern is that most of these TNF jackets have chest vents and that those vents don't go thru the fleece liner to the base layer.

I'm not looking to overnight or do a Presi traverses this winter. A few 10 mile roundtrips and some above treeline hiking will be the extent of my winter adventures. Do I really need a hard shell? Should I hold out to buy something that vents better? What minimum requirements should I be looking for in a winter jacket?

I haven't been on much lately, so if this subject has been discussed in length recently, and I missed it in my search, please point me to the thread name.

Thanks for any input from your housebound trail snail...

 

[Warren]

I have very rarely used my hard shell in the winter. If I need more than the dryskin top I use as my base layer, I'll throw on a windshirt or an old anorak (or both). The anorak is double layered uncoated nylon with more zippers than it needs but works well at shedding moisture and wind. It was my first outdoor shell bought for $14 at Hermans and it's still a great performer.

I've done well using my 3 season gear in winter by adding a puffy down or synthetic jacket and some sort of uncoated nylon windbreaker (a heavier type works well). I haven't used the precip in winter, but I don't think it's that good of a windblocker and I remember a posting a while back mentioning it frosting on the inside in winter.

 

[mommabear]

Hi Periwinkle,

I think what you need depends on a lot of things - where you'll be hiking (how exposed to the wind, how wet the trail is, etc.), the weather conditions for that day, and your own comfort levels. Like Warren, I don't think the outer shell is as crucial as might be expected and I agree $300 is a lot to well, shell out for only a possible additional level of comfort. IMO, unless you're expecting weather conditions that are really rainy or borderline rain/snow, the bottom layer or two are what's far more important. I also think the additional things such as gloves, hat, face mask, and beverage you bring are also more important. I find that during winter hikes, feeling warm on the inside with some nice tea or hot chocolate in a thermos can make up for wearing the crappiest gear. It’s certainly better than sipping on icy water.

You said you had a layer of primaloft with a light fleece layer underneath. IMO, Primaloft provides just about the best lightweight and waterproof insulation. You had mentioned getting a TNF – I’m assuming you’re talking about The North Face brand. My experience with North Face is that it’s good but probably the highest cost for the value that’s out there. Even though North Face is good, it has become a popular name brand on some city streets so you’re not paying for extra quality. The Marmot Precip doesn’t boast extra wind protection but it does have a rip-stop feature which is usually included in high elevation jackets – that’s often one of the features that adds to the cost of the jackets sold as higher elevation gear.

If you’re concerned about wind at higher elevations, windstopper gloves and accessories do a pretty good job and instead of getting a real expensive outershell, you can probably pick up a light windstopper jacket to replace your light fleece layer. They have windstopper jackets at about a third of the price of an expensive shell – the windstopper jackets usually have pit zips too – plus you can use the windstopper jacket as a great cover on its own for those windy summits all throughout the year. Either way, I find it’s always better to have confidence in what makes you most comfortable instead of wearing what other people tell you you should.

Have fun whatever you decide to do. . . from your housebound . . . and hibernating . . . fellow trail snail.

 

[HikerBob]

This is my first winter hiking and I had all the same questions regarding what clothing was needed. In my mind if I didn't have twenty layers and looked like the Michelin Man how could I ever be warm?

The reality is that, as long as you stay well hydrated and fed, your body will generate a lot of heat while hiking. I'm a slow hiker but I still manage to heat up pretty well.

I started out wearing way too much and getting sweaty - not a good thing when you stop during or after the hike when your body cools off. Cold and clammy is a dangerous thing to be.

For now I only day hike. Dawn to dusk, but no overnights. I've pared my layers down to a pretty light system and it works for me. This is what I've worn on days down to -7 or thereabouts and never been uncomfortably cold.

Top: a long sleeved EMS Techwick base, lightweight EMS Thermowick fleece mid, Marmot Driclime outer.
Bottom: Lightweight Bergelene long johns, bergelene boxers, EMS Windshear pant, Patagonia liner and expedition weight socks.

I also carry a Cabala Down jacket for stops (Thanks Sherpa for this suggestion!) and EMS Thunderhead jacket and pants for heavy precipitation protection.

When I started out I would wear the outer shell and even with the pit zips and other venting the non-breathability had me sweating up a storm. These have now been relegated to the bottom of my pack and would only come out if there was heavy precipitation.

The Windshear pants and Driclime top are lightweight, have wicking liners and zips for venting. They are also very windproof and that is key. An early purchase was a heavy fleece with reinforced areas for wear and rain protection. I found this to be useless in anything but calm conditions as the wind went right through it. This now stays at home and gets used for grocery store runs!

Another important temperature control area is the head. I mix and match a windblock balaclava, trapper hat with ear flaps, synthetic 'wool' hat, and nothing. The body loses a lot of heat through the head so it is important to keep it warm to stay warm and conversely let it cool if you are feeling too warm.

Getting back to your original question (I tend to ramble....) I too drooled over all kinds of multi layer, Goretex hard shell jacket systems to start with. In a way I think the high prices did me a favour in that I now have a pretty flexible and effective layering system that works for me. Sometimes less is more, but as they say 'Your mileage may vary'.

Have fun, stay warm and keep hiking

Bob

 

[jfb]

I don't think you need a hardshell for winter conditions. I've had bad experiences wearing my Precip anorak in cold weather, it just doesn't breathe well. I used to wear an uncoated Supplex anorak (you can get one at L.L. Bean for about $50.), but upgraded to a Patagonia Stretch Krushell that works fine. W/B fabrics are basically rainwear that breathe well enough if you're just standing around camp, but they're not practical for hiking - especially in winter.

 

[SherpaKroto]

My typical winter clothing:
1) Near freezing, no precip: long sleeve polypro/merino wool blend top, long polypro underwear, nylon shorts, OR Expedition gaiters, polypro liner gloves, OR Peruvian hat with flaps up
2) Near 0F, no precip: add short sleeve polypro, marmot precip pants, double wool mits (remove polypro gloves if too warm), OR Peruvian hat, flaps down
3) Below 0F, no precip: add windstopper fleece vest, lined, uninsulated bibs (instead of precips - remove shorts)

When it snows, or there is recent snow (i.e. in trees, falling on me), 3 Ply Goretex Shell. Vents open or closed, depending on temps. When I stop, or it gets real cold and windy, I place a Cabelas down sweater over my Goretex shell. This year I've been comfortable down to -24F on Nye, and -15F in 50+mph winds on Cascade. In past years, I've been warm in the Northern Presis in -18F and 60+mph winds. So, for me, it works.

As for $300, THIS ($45) is my jacket, and THIS ($70) is a hooded version that is quite similar. I place this OVER my shell, so sized it 2 sizes larger, and went with the LONG version (trust me - go for the LONG - I originally ordered the regular, and found it too short). By putting it over the shell, it traps more air insode (insulation), and doesn't require me to remove any layers when adding the final insulating layer

 

[Paul]

As Mommabear said, the choice of whether or not you purchase a shell and, if so, what quality really depends on the type of hiking you plan to do. If you plan on hiking above tree-line on a regular basis, I would strongly recommend purchasing a high-quality shell that gives you the best performance at the weight you are willing to carry. Personally, I use an Arc-Teryx Theta AR and absolutely love it, especially on windy winter days in the Presi's or Franconia's. The breathability and wind-protection offered by this garment is invaluable. When lesser shells are failing, this shell continues to perform. It is light and very functional as well. Also keep in mind that the shell could end up saving your life if you were ever stuck above treeline for a considerable time in adverse conditions (route finding, injury, etc.). Of course, all of this functionality comes at a price and a high-end Arc-Teryx, Marmot, or Mountain Hardware shell is going to set set you back at least $350. IMHO, these shells are well worth the money and provide exceptional value in the long term as they will outlast any of the cheaper variety shells/jackets. I have a precip jacket myself, and wore that out in about a year. The precip shell offers minimal breathability and marginal wind protection and is inadequate for serious winter trips, even in warmer conditions. If you are looking for a shell at prices well-below retail I would recommend trying Hilton's Tent City in Boston. All prices are discounted 20% off retail, plus you will get an addtional 10% off if you show your AMC membership. They stock Arc-Teryx, Mountain Hardware, Marmot, etc..

 

[dave.m]

Hrmmm....

If you are like me, this is tough because you don't have an unlimited budget and can't afford super specialized jackets that you can only use on a handful of days per year. Specifically, the absolute best jacket above treeline in the winter won't be the best at other things so this has a LOT to do with what other things you want to do and what tradeoff you want to make.

For winter travel below treeline, I never use GoreTex unless the temp is well above 25f, which translates into wet snow. Above treeline, I use unlined, 3-layer GoreTex, largely because of its superior windproofness compared to plain Supplex. The Gtx is not ideal in winter due to the lack of breathability that others have noted but I use it enough during the rainy season that its a reasonable investment and an acceptable comprimise.

For trips where I'll be below treeline all day, I use a hooded supplex anorak ($20 on clearance at EMS). For trips above treeline, I wear a polyester hoodles windshirt with pitzips. It fits close enough that its easy to layer over on top of when getting on full battle gear for above treeline.

In terms of insulation, I like loft insulations for stopping and fleece for moving. Nylon shelled loft insulation holds wettness more than fleece, or so it seems.

For brutal temps, I have a highloft Primaloft parka that goes over everything. On rare occasions, I'll hike in it above treeline.

 

[ajtiv]

I think everyone can tell you what they use and there is alot of good advise here, but you really need to try different layer combinations on short cold day hikes and progress to longer times out in the elements.
People heat up differently and alot has to do with the wind and the level of activity.
With that said I am good with polypro long johns, top and bottom goretex pants full zip for venting, lightweight fleece top and I have an Mountain Hardwear Epic jacket similiar to the precip. that works for me down to 10 to15 F. Below that I put on a 3 layer Goretex XCR shell by Marmot and a hat. This breaths and vents well for me.
Fleece gloves with shell, Kamik winter boots, and windstopper Balaclava for really windy days.
I have an inexpensive down jacket I use a rest stops if more than 15mins.
This set up is the result of 10 weekends of testing.
good luck and if in doubt bring more and not less you can always take off if needed.
Stay warm
Al

 

[BrentD22]

EMS, REI, and others are starting there "winter blow out sales" there are some good prices and not so good prices, but there are some deffenetly some diamonds in the ruff! Also try IME and Ragged's Consigment Shops in NH.

 

[snowman]

Do I really need a hardshell?

No, you don’t. In fact I suggest not getting one especially since you do not plan on ”big” trips up the presis in the winter. The best climbers in the world are all going away from hard shells.

I’m a big proponent of buying shells and warmer inner liners separately. Do not buy them as 1 jacket. I climb with a light Patagonia shell all the time in as low as -15. As long as I am moving, this is fine. When I stop to belay, I throw on a warm belay jacket.

1. Buy a shell that can shed water reasonably well (Patagonia Slingshot, dimension)
2. Buy a fleece (LL bean) and you’re ready to go at a reasonable price.
3. Go climb