winter peak bagging with non insulated boots

[adirobdack46r]

Though no where's near as much as some, I have done my share of hiking but always in fair weather. Have only hiked in above freezing temps. A friend and I want to try bagging a couple peaks before this year's winter is gone. All I have for boots are the ones I wear in fair weather. They are full leather with the Gortex membraine but not insulated. I have done some little snowshoeing trips around home and always wear these boots. Due to the heat generation of the activity my feet have stayed warm. It will only be a day hike but we'll be out longer than any of my little snowshoe trips to date and I'm concerned about cold feet. Any thoughts? Can I get by with these boots or it is suicide? Does everyone who goes out hiking in the winter have insulated hiking boots?

 

[Tramper Al]

Due to the heat generation of the activity my feet have stayed warm.

Warm while moving is easy.

What is the plan for keeping warm if and when you must stop your activity? Like if: exhausted, injured, helping someone who needs your help.

 

[Doc McPeak]

No overnights, but I did the W46 without insulated boots. They got cold here and there but never close to anything dangerous. Al brings up a good point. I always have a pair of expedition weight socks and poly booties (might be VBL, got them so long ago I don't remember ... they were purple and looked cool in the patagonia catalogue so I added them to my order) as well as a dry top and occassional bivy sack to help fend off that possibility. I think the fit is everything. If too tight, you'll get cold regardless of how much insulation you have. Good blood flow will keep you warm... or at least help, weather dependent. Start small, and work your way up from there. And ask questions, here.

 

[Rick]

Adirobdack,
is your avatar Chimney bluffs?

 

[adirobdack46r]

Warm while moving is easy.

What is the plan for keeping warm if and when you must stop your activity? Like if: exhausted, injured, helping someone who needs your help.

I've always been known to be over prepaired/carry too much. Is there such a thing when you need the stuff ha ha. Like I said I'm looking for input about the boots because that is all I have while on the move but I'd planned on carrying air activated hot packs in addition to the usual extra dry socks/clothing and the gas cooking burner. I'd hoped that would help out if stopped or if my feet got cold but I know it isn't a perfect contingency plan. I don't think I'll ever be doing any overnighters in the winter, I don't see how you winter hikers do it. I'd want to bring the furnace from my house so that I know I'd be warm.

 

[adirobdack46r]

Adirobdack,
is your avatar Chimney bluffs?

No I am standing on the summit of Little Haystack with Mt. Haystack just behind me. (Adirondack Mtns)

 

[DougPaul]

If you hike with inadequate or marginal boots (ie uninsulated) you risk cold injury to your feet (ie frostbite).

It is easy to say that you generate enough heat while moving, but what happens if you have to stop for injury (yourself or someone else in your party) or are benighted. Or your boots get wet? Not worth sacrificing your feet. At least carry dry socks and booties (polyester are better than down because they tend to get wet) so you have a backup. Better yet, get proper winter boots (and still consider carrying the booties).

Re heaters:
Do you carry enough to keep your feet warm for 24-48 hrs? I'd rather just have adequate insulation.

A friend injured his feet by having inadequately insulated boots on a day trip.

Consider also that if you get cold feet and have to deal with them, you may immobilize or delay your party.

Doug

 

[Pucknuts61]

Have you considered "Superfeet" or some other type of insole to help you for now?
You might also look at Thorlo 3's in addition to wearing polypro socks (and warmers).

 

[adirobdack46r]

To all those who think that using uninsulated boots is an unsafe risk, do you have any opinions on a decent boot? In my town there is only a Gander Mtn and a Dicks Sporting Goods. I can drive to Syracuse about an hour away. I do a lot of shopping at EMS and just looking there it seemed like insulated boots were slim pickings if any at all. Not living in a huge city I'm sure my exposure to other gear that might be out there is limited.

 

[caleb]

Can I get by with these boots or ...

I would encourage you to get out there with what you have and *learn* to keep your feet warm. staying warm is a set of skills as much as anything else. When you're out there stay hydrated, well fed, and keep moving. bring extra socks (and extra insulator jacket) and bring two hats and while you're at it throw an extra pair of liner gloves into your pack (do carry a pack). Your current boots should be fine for days hikes in all but the coldest most severe weather. With a good sock combination..a liner sock, vbl sock or plastic bag, and an insulator sock, you can probably achieve a nice and toasty result. caveat: If your boot fits tight with the above combination IT'S NO GOOD, better to spring for a larger pair. Gaiters are very important too (unmentioned so far), they'll keep snow and ice out and give 2/3 of your boot an extra weather shield. This is my winter system. Kayland Contact 2500s and OR gaiters, a recent concession to the Whites and an upgrade from the Lowa mids that took me across (in a paranoid fashion) most of the CDT. good luck C

 

[DougPaul]

To all those who think that using uninsulated boots is an unsafe risk, do you have any opinions on a decent boot?

I use a double leather mountaineering boot (Galibier Makalu), unfortunately no longer available. Double leather or plastic boots are generally suitable. A 2003 review: http://climbing.com/equipment/boots218. There have been several recent threads discussing double boots.

There are also shoe-pacs, and Mickey Mouse boots (American or Canadian surplus only). Both are warm, but give limited support and are hard to fit with crampons.

Vapor barrier socks can also help. Or you can improvise with plastic bags. From the inside out: thin liner sock, vapor/moisture barrier, heavy wool sock, optional outer vapor/moisture barrier (only needed in wet conditions). The moisture barrier keeps your insulating sock dry.

Doug

 

[MattC]

I just went through this same issue earlier in the winter. I ended up just getting a pair of The North Face Chlikats, which were on sale at EMS. They have only 200 grams of Primaloft, but they've worked pretty well so far. I've of course only been hiking the Catskills, not the Whites or ADKs, which are usually significantly colder/windier. I got my regular size after trying a half-size up. The larger size felt great in the toe-box, but my heel was just moving way too much.

All the advice given so far is great, particularly the stuff about fit and keeping your body warm in general, and of course the advice to plan for the unexpected. It's good to keep in mind that the body only "abandons" the extremeties when the internal/vital organs are getting cold. Keep your core, head and neck warm enough and it'll help w/ your feet.

As for fit, I've been warmer on days when I had on a liner and a heavy fleece sock than on other days when I've had on medium wool socks under the heavy fleece ones. The later combination is probably too much to allow good circulation, at least in my boots. I've tried the chemical foot warmers exactly once, and felt they didn't do much. I still have some, maybe I'll do another test run.

Another factor to consider: Possible constriction from snowshoe/ski/crampon bindings. The metal in crampons also conducts heat. A friend of mine got mild toe frostbite during a long hike with crampons on three-season boots.

Matt

 

[adirobdack46r]

I'd like to thank everyone for your input thus far. These forums are great for educating us novices. Many good points have been brought up, a few things I had not considered yet.

 

[Pete Hogan]

Peace of mind "insurance"

adirobdack46er,

Each of us has his or her own take on what to do regarding winter preparedness. And I respect those people who have offered their opinions on your inquiry. So.....here is the sum of my 30-year experiential wisdom.

I've always subscribed to the "better safe than sorry" school of thought -- especially when venturing out into such a harsh environment as winter at 4000+ feet. (In any season, I carry enough extra provisions to get me through an unexpected night. I could go much lighter and most likely get by, but I choose to be prepared for the unexpected.)

So what are you trying to save by "getting by" with your current summer gear? Would you consider the same strategy for your clothing or face protection or hands?

Keep your safety margins wide enough by being prepared and you won't have to compromise yourself. The tragedies we read about that happen (especially in winter) are the result of an error or series of errors in decisions that involve personal judgement. Being prepared with the proper clothing is a personal judgement issue. You may not ever need your sound judgement justified, but just in case you find yourself in compromising conditions, you'll know you made the right choice.

Go for the winter boots.

 

[adirobdack46r]

Thanks Pete,
If you come back to this thread I was wondering what your suggestion would be for a boot. Not nesesarily a specific boot but a type. I have winter boots but nothing I'd want to walk for miles and miles in like I do in my hiking boots. So what is a typical boot to use hiking in the winter?
A normal winter boot like everyone has...
A insulated boot that looks like a hiking boot.......
A mountaineering/ice climbing boot, it seems these are way too stiff to be comfy......

 

[HikerBob]

FWIW - I use Salomon SM Lite boots in winter. With a Wright Sock Merino undersock and Patagonia Expedition weight on top I find them plenty warm enough. I'm on my second winter season with this set up and only had one incident last year on a particularly cold day (-9 at the trailhead - considerably colder on the summit).

When I started out I also bought a pair of Vasque Alpine GTX boots because they came in a wide fitting. I wore these maybe twice in winter and had cold feet both times. I now only use these for non-winter treks and find them to be a very comfy boot for that use.

I've toyed with the idea of getting plastics for winter, and for overnights it seems they are the best choice, but for dayhiking I can't complain about what I'm using now.

Also bear in mind that while the jolly trip reports and pictures may convey an image of a relaxed, carefree pastime, Winter hiking is always a major undertaking and, even on the most perfect of days, will test your preparedness.

I second Pete H et al - when it comes to safety you shouldn't try and "make do"

Bob

 

[Reekee]

Completed all winter 46 in leathers with many overnights. Good management is key. Boots go in the bottom of the bag. Take out the insoles and sleep with them close to your body. I have plastics but only ice-climb in them. For day trips you'll have no problem. I enjoy the mid duty boot (with no insolation)because of their flexibility and light weight. Enjoy and stay light on your feet.

 

[jfb]

My rule of thumb is that if you have hiking boots that you like for three-season hiking, they're too light for winter conditions. If you use trail runners in summer because your boots are too heavy, they may be fine for winter dayhikes. For real winter conditions, you'd have a pair of boots that you wouldn't even consider wearing with no snow on the ground.

Another rule of thumb is the 4 lb. rule. Any boots weighing less than 4 lbs. per pair (size 9) are too light for winter hiking.

My inventory of boots includes Salomon Expert Low shoes for summer, Salomon ProTrek 6 GTX for spring/fall, Salomon SM Lites for winter dayhikes and Galibier Makalus for winter camping/ice climbing.

I agree that if you wear boots that are a bit on the light side, you should bring booties as a backup. I have some MEC hut slippers and they are really warm.

 

[Jeebus]

the problem with individual results with boots is that they are, as the word suggests, Individual.
everyone's circulation is different. Why not try Scarpa Alphas as a double plastic boot? $149 at sierratradingpost at the moment and they have a decent range of sizes still available.

p.s. I am in no way affiliated with sierratradingpost.

 

[Haystacker]

Last weekend I saw the new Koflach Degre's on sale at Ragged Mountain in North Conway for $169, if I recall correctly. They may have only had limited sizes left, but I thought it could be useful information to somebody.
Cheers,
Haystacker