WMNF Closure!

[forestgnome]

Accuweather says 32mph winds for Madison at 8:00 am.....it's as calm as it could be and rain is very light. I know, I know, I'm supposed to be terriried....

Agee with previos posters about drawing the line here...will they want to close for every storm now? How about just warning us ( as if we needed it ) and let us make our own decisions....sort of pretend that we are grown ups and don't need to be coddled by the govt.

 

[Maddy]

I really think they are just covering their bases.
Can't you just hear it all now? Some bozos go out in the storm, sustain a serious injury or die because of their actions.
"Enter"...the lawyers.
They will claim that they were never warned of the intensity of this storm and sue for millions. Much like these same individuals have not a clue that it's dangerous to scale a high fence with warning signs near very high cliffs or waterfalls. They really know it's life threatening but they do it believing they will get away with it. When it backfires, the families hire the lawyers.
It would not come as a complete shock to me if we see a lot more of this these closures in the future. One would think this would be unnecessary, that common sense would dictate not to engage in these behaviors, but unfortunately for some, common sense is in very short supply.

Enjoy the storm! The winds are just beginning to rev up some out here. Charter cable will go out any second now! The mere hint of a breeze usually does it for us.

Sure do hope that the thru hikers have all found safe refuge.

 

[Stash]

What is happening and what was predicted are two different things. If it went as expected and someone decided to go out because it's their right should SAR have to risk their lives to save them? If the closure didn't happen that would be expected. So does the "right" to be there override the right of SAR to avoid going out in an unreasonable condition? And even if it's closed and someone still goes out will SAR still make the attemot to assist if called?

When rights risk those with responsibility are they really worth exercising?

 

[griffin]

Personally, I don't think the threat of lawsuits had much to do with this. Such suits really are rare, and to my knowledge the few that have been filed have not been successful.

Closing the WMNF allows the forest service to let most of their own people avoid being out in what could be a very dangerous storm - in size and duration if not in intensity. And it does send a message to the general public that this particular storm is nothing to trifle with during a season when visitors are less likely (I suspect) to be paying attention to environmental hazards than they would be in the winter.

Not a fan of weather-related hysteria, but I don't think over-reacting to a reaction makes any more sense than over-reacting to the situation in the first place.

 

[Stash]

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41723


'nuff said.

 

[Maddy]

And even if it's closed and someone still goes out will SAR still make the attemot to assist if called?

I don't think so. From what I understand I believe it is their policy not to. As I had it explained to me by an SAR person on these boards some time ago, NO ONE is expected to place their own life at risk to save someone else. You do the best you can but you should never feel that you have to cross that line. Now if conditions changed and the storm was not life threatening, I believe they would go out and make an attempt.

We had a good example of that yesterday when the fire dept did not put their swimmers out to save the people and cat who were marooned on their boat at sea. Once the boat shifted and it was safe they were sent out to retrieve them.

 

[MichaelJ]

And even if it's closed and someone still goes out will SAR still make the attemot to assist if called?

One closure announcement I read said quite concisely that no SAR services would be available on Sunday.

 

[Stash]

And even if it's closed and someone still goes out will SAR still make the attemot to assist if called?

My statement here was more rhetorical than actual. They don't have to but will they because they are who they are?

 

[hikerfast]

there are big scary raindrops in manchester and it is breezy. im so terrified...lol.

 

[Maddy]

My statement here was more rhetorical than actual. They don't have to but will they because they are who they are?

You are correct. On their own time they can do anything they choose to. The bottom line though is if it's a group search, the people in charge make the determination if it is safe to proceed. From what I was told they do not want more injuries or fatalities because people are trying to be heroes in life threatening conditions. They did include this reminder in their posting re:Irene.
"Ability to conduct Search and Rescue operations will not be possible Sunday during the height of the storm."
I think things changed after Albert Dow lost his life in an avalanche while searching for missing hikers.
These folks are encouraged to respect their own lives and not endanger themselves as much as humanly possible.
I was relieved to hear this because I always feared I would be guilt ridden for life if I had to leave someone behind and they had a bad outcome. It would not be easy to walk away but there are situations when it is unavoidable.

 

[Stash]

..so my statment would not change and I really see nothing wring with NFS publishing a "closed" status to communicate potential danger. I don't see it as a power grab. I see it as them simply trying to tell those a little less informed that they really shouldn't be out there.

 

[TDawg]

My friend just posted a video of the Pemi East Branch @ Loon Mountain in Lincoln, NH. The "River lot" she refers to is the one on the mountain side of the river up under the bridge.

1:30pm:11,000 cfs and rising fast. Over 2 feet in the last hour.

 

[Maddy]

..so my statment would not change and I really see nothing wring with NFS publishing a "closed" status to communicate potential danger. I don't see it as a power grab. I see it as them simply trying to tell those a little less informed that they really shouldn't be out there.

Agreed! I think they have a responsibility to communicate potential danger. They appear to take it very seriously. Hopefully it does dissuade some who might be inclined to proceed in the face of danger to rethink their plans. There will always be those who perceive it as a call to pursue the ultimate challenge.

Time will tell how this will evolve, if at all.
I do get the sense that something is changing. Have never seen them do anything like this before. The closest was seeing rangers at Pinkham warning the ski brigade heading up that they would be in grave danger is they skied the bowl. Most everyone continued to hike up but I never saw one person ski the ravine that day. People hung out at the hut, skied Sherburne, or hiked back. It was a great day regardless.

 

[MichaelJ]

My friend just posted a video of the Pemi East Branch @ Loon Mountain in Lincoln, NH.

Your friend's video is on Facebook and not available to the public.

19,400 CFS in the EDITED: Pemi below Lincoln. Unbelievable!
21,800 CFS in the Wild River ... I remember 5,000CFS and it was deadly impassable, I can't even fathom that much water, it must be well outside the streambed.

 

[MichaelJ]

Sorry, I misread the gages ... that's 31,200cfs in the Pemi below Lincoln, but the East Branch is reading 2,000cfs.

I'm not sure how accurate that lower value is, since it also claims the East Branch gage is registering over *16 feet* of water.

 

[TDawg]

Your friend's video is on Facebook and not available to the public.

Aww man! Well trust me it was impressive.

Here's another friends picture from the bridge @ LOON. The large rock in the middle of the river is submerged. The open area to the left of the trees is usually the "River Lot." I think I'm gonna take a ride to see this, if so I'll report back.

 

[MichaelJ]

This is why they wanted everyone out of the WMNF.
I wonder how many hiking, or forest road, bridges will get washed out?
River and streams are likely simply impassable. Deadly.
Imagine being unable to get back down a road from a parking lot due to a lost bridge, or a gully or blown-out culvert?
Anyone still think closing the trails and gating the roads wasn't a good idea?

 

[grouseking]

A foot of rain in the North Conway area!!

This is from NWS flood warnings, very scary

FLASH FLOOD STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE GRAY ME
314 PM EDT SUN AUG 28 2011

MEC017-NHC003-007-009-282330-
/O.CON.KGYX.FF.W.0007.000000T0000Z-110828T2330Z/
/00000.0.ER.000000T0000Z.000000T0000Z.000000T0000Z.OO/
OXFORD ME-COOS NH-CARROLL NH-GRAFTON NH-
314 PM EDT SUN AUG 28 2011

...EXTREME RAINFALL AND RIVER RISES ARE CREATING LIFE THREATENING
CONDITIONS IN NORTHERN NEW HAMPSHIRE...

...A FLASH FLOOD WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 730 PM EDT FOR
GRAFTON...CARROLL...COOS AND OXFORD COUNTIES...

AT 300 PM...EXTREMELY HEAVY RAIN CONTINUES TO FALL IN NORTHERN NEW
HAMPSHIRE AS WELL AS OXFORD COUNTY MAINE. SOME OF THE HARDEST HIT
AREAS INCLUDE THE AREA NEAR NORTH CONWAY ALONG THE SWIFT AND UPPER
SACO RIVERS. RADAR ESTIMATIONS NOW DEPICT OVER A FOOT OF RAIN HAS
FALLEN OVER PARTS OF THIS REGION FROM TROPICAL STORM IRENE. LAW
ENFORCEMENT REPORTS INDICATE THAT ROAD WASHOUTS ARE OCCURRING ALONG
ROUTE 302 IN THE ATTITASH REGION.THE SWIFT AND UPPER SACO RIVERS WILL HAVE EXTREMELY RAPID RISES THIS
AFTERNOON AND TONIGHT. THE WATERVILLE VALLEY AREA WILL CONTINUE TO
BE HARD HIT AS WELL. OTHER AREAS IN AND AROUND THE WHITE MOUNTAIN
REGION WILL CONTINUE TO BE PRONE TO DANGEROUS FLOOD THREATS.

EXTREME FLOODING...ALONG WITH POTENTIAL ROCK AND MUDSLIDE WILL
THREATEN THE REGION INTO TONIGHT.PRECAUTIONARY/PREPAREDNESS ACTIONS...

PLEASE REPORT HIGH WATER TO THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE BY CALLING
TOLL FREE...1-877-633-6772...WHEN YOU CAN DO SO SAFELY.

 

[walker]

Water water everywhere

 

[hikerfast]

the parking lot at ledges in woodstock, where the canoe liveries put in, is under water...cops closing all the roads up here. maybe ill check out livermore falls. loon mountain rapids are impressive indeed