Would you pay for hiker insurance?

[Stash]

Dug, you're missing the point of my argument. It's not, "Government is good." Dr_wu002 suggested that the Federal Government can do nothing right, sarcastically saying, "Ah, the Federal Government... our savior, model of efficiency and effectiveness they would certainly do this right. They get everything right. Look, what starts as a 'nice idea' usually turns into disaster with the feds." I disagree, I believe that they actually do some things well and I have given what I think are some examples.

I agree. Endlessly pointing out the negatives leads nowhere I want to be. Find a positive. Maybe it will expand..

 

[Stash]

Are you telling me you haven't heard of public concern in other parts of the country regarding public funds being used for search and rescue?
Are you telling me you think this concern is unique to NH, or maybe unique to the Union Leader?

Not at all... Unless UL and CNN are one in the same.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/02/california.climber.death/index.html

But the question remains. Are those who post in UL or CNN or other forums really typical of the public view? Or are they simply a vocal minority?

 

[Raymond]

Well, the original post said, ‘‘You pay your money and you're covered for everything except gross negligence’’ (my emphasis), which doesn’t seem very different from the situation we have now, so, no, I wouldn’t buy any such insurance if I didn’t have to.

 

[Craig]

Speaking of Mt Shasta

Not at all... Unless UL and CNN are one in the same.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/02/california.climber.death/index.html

I was on Mt. Shasta last week, a week after the tragic death of the climber on the summit.
I was breaking trail up the ridge from bunny flats to tree-line in support of my solo summit attempt the next day. Just before I reached tree-line a 72 yo local guy came up from behind me on skis. He was skinning to tree-line for a run down the adjacent ridge. He stopped beside me and we spoke for a bit.

He asked me where I was heading on snowshoes. I told him I was heading up Broadway to the start of the Green Butte Ridge in support of a summit run the next day. This prompted him to start a rant about the death of one of the two climbers the previous week. He wasn’t ranting at me, he was ranting about the repeated rescues that occur on Shasta and around the country.

What I found interesting during his 5 minute rant was some of the statements he made like:

• I’m tired of having to pay for rescuing people that are ego driven to climb and hike these mountains. They (the two climbers) were told by FS rangers not to climb because a storm was coming.
• People like that put those brave SAR’s folks at risk. You know a helicopter had to drop off 9 rescue workers on the summit during this bad weather? We’ve already had 1 helicopter crash because of these types of guys.
• Whatever happened to the mountaineering creed that you don’t go up in worsening weather or you don’t leave you partner behind. It’s different now. These young kids are driven by ego’s to go out, do whatever they want regardless of the consequences. You should read some of the stuff on the internet the survivor wrote. I kept the newspaper article, I couldn’t believe it.

As he continued with his diatribe I was struck with how many of the arguments he was making were the same arguments I’ve read in the newspaper or on the internet every time one of these incidents occurs. It was almost like he was regurgitating the same old bullet items I’ve read for years. After he had exhausted his almost limitless list of opinions on this situation he asked: You’re a veteran, right? Because of my hat and glacier glasses he mistook me for someone he knew. He seemed a little embarrass to find out I was from NH.

But the question remains. Are those who post in UL or CNN or other forums really typical of the public view? Or are they simply a vocal minority?

Why did I find his rant interesting? Because perception becomes reality.

If you are told the same thing over and over (whether it is true or not) it is perceived as being the truth.

When the media (or anyone) repeatedly tells the general public the same thing over and over, we run the risk of the general public perceiving it as reality.

Perception becomes reality.

 

[Maddy]

What I found interesting during his 5 minute rant was some of the statements he made like:

• I’m tired of having to pay for rescuing people that are ego driven to climb and hike these mountains. They (the two climbers) were told by FS rangers not to climb because a storm was coming.
•People like that put those brave SAR’s folks at risk. You know a helicopter had to drop off 9 rescue workers on the summit during this bad weather? We’ve already had 1 helicopter crash because of these types of guys.
•Whatever happened to the mountaineering creed that you don’t go up in worsening weather or you don’t leave you partner behind. It’s different now. These young kids are driven by ego’s to go out, do whatever they want regardless of the consequences. You should read some of the stuff on the internet the survivor wrote. I kept the newspaper article, I couldn’t believe it.

If you are told the same thing over and over (whether it is true or not) it is perceived as being the truth.
Perception becomes reality.

Bold script mine.

In this case, is this perception or is it reality?
Seems like reality to me.
If it is not, can we believe anything we read?

We have all heard similar stories, SAR risking their own lives to save hikers who choose to be in the wrong place at the wrong time despite being warned. Heli's who crash on life saving missions. Ego driven people who don't heed warnings and then place their rescuers at risk. I don't think this is all perception. In this case I believe he did have to leave his partner or risk losing his own life.

Were they warned of an impending storm by a ranger?

Same story, different day, or is it?

 

[TEO]

This is the first I've heard that the two climbers were advised not to climb by a FS Ranger. All other accounts that I've read allege that they had checked the forecast before heading on to the mountain on Thursday, when the storm had yet to be predicted.

Also, according to the surviving hiker, they could not see the storm coming, because it was blocked by the mountain.

The survivor marked the location of the body quite well, easing the recovery & making it safer. All helo SARs are inherently risky, the SAR personnel willing choose to take that risk.

"People like that" & "These types of guys"?

From my perspective, his statements seem to be based upon an alternate reality.

 

[Tim Seaver]

About that perception thing...

When the media (or anyone) repeatedly tells the general public the same thing over and over, we run the risk of the general public perceiving it as reality.

This is somewhat true, which is why it's a good thing that the bulk of the articles on the Scott Mason "rescue" don't put Scott in a bad light, but they do shine a light on the State of New Hampshire's unwise and predatory practices, using statements by National SAR groups.

I guess it comes down to whose opinion you value more: anonymous message board commenters who refer to hikers as "selfish yahoo want-abees", or the position of the SAR people who are putting their lives on the line. The fact is that the majority of the media surrounding Scott's case makes NH look pretty bad, and totally out of synch with National SAR groups position on charging for rescue.

N.H. Bills Lost Hikers for Cost of Rescue
Seven Other States Have Laws Allowing Such Charges, But Some Groups Say the Policy Is Dangerous "National search and rescue organizations insist just the possibility of being billed is dangerous policy. Hikers may delay calling
for help while they think about the cost, and that could put them — and the mostly volunteer corps of rescuers — at greater risk"

Teen Hiker Survived On Wits & Hand Gel
Scott Mason Was Stranded On Mount Washington For 3 Days
"He chose a route he had discussed with the staff at the Appalachian Mountain Club lodge where he began his hike. 'Normally trails that aren't passable during the spring can still be passed this time of year,' he said. But that emergency route led him into unexpected trouble: rising water and deep snow caused by unseasonably warm weather."

NH drops effort to get teen to pay $25k for rescue
"National search-and-rescue organizations dislike the laws. They worry the possibility of big bills could cause hikers to delay calling for help, putting them and rescuers at greater risk"

Eagle Scout Won’t Have to Pay for Rescue – For Now
"Still, many national organizations oppose imposing fees for rescues, concerned that some individuals in real emergencies might
hesitate to seek assistance."


NH drops reimbursement fine against teen hiker
"That the state would go after a hiker, especially one with Mason's experience, raised the ire of other experienced hikers, in particular the National Association for Search & Rescue.The organization with its stated mission of "... that others may live" said in a position statement that billing for search and rescue is wrong because the threat of a fine might sway hikers who are in legitimate trouble not to try to call for help, risking their lives.“Although it remains a local decision, billing for search and rescue operations is a dangerous practice that should be avoided,” said NASAR President Dan Hourihan in a statement."


Best advice: Don't get lost hiking in NH
"Records obtained by the Associated Press in a Freedom of Information Act request paint a picture of a state that seems even more
predatory than first thought when it comes to the case of lost hiker Scott Mason" Don't charge for rescues, says national organization
"The people in the profession are quite distressed about this," said NASAR spokesman Howard M. Paul. He said members of the group,
while admittedly lack full details of all the circumstances involved, have been reading news reports about Mason's case and have been
commenting about it on their online news groups.

Teen walloped with NH rescue fine
"Does the punishment fit the crime? You might ask that question in the case of a 17-year-old Massachusetts boy who's been fined
$25,000 by the state of New Hampshire for his rescue in the White Mountains. His crime, if you will, was not using sound judgment when he got hurt. The punishment in this case is the cost of his rescue."

 

[jniehof]

In this case, is this perception or is it reality?
Seems like reality to me.
If it is not, can we believe anything we read?

Perception, not reality. A lot of that was speculation that ran around the press before the authorities actually made contact and got repeated and repeated....

I think we can probably trust PellucidWombat's statements.

When the media (or anyone) repeatedly tells the general public the same thing over and over, we run the risk of the general public perceiving it as reality.

It's worse than that:
If someone hears "X is true" repeatedly and then is told "X is not true", that actually reinforces that X is true.

If they are told "Y is true" (where Y directly contradicts X, but X is not mentioned), they will discard Y without even realizing it's because they believe X.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

I would state again, I would gladly pay for "No Fault" accident insurance. I have no intention of doing anything stupid, but put ANY conditions on it and I very quickly lose interest because of the doubt that the insurance company would actually pay anything when the time came.

 

[Stash]

Just before I reached tree-line a 72 yo local guy came up from behind me on skis. He was skinning to tree-line for a run down the adjacent ridge. He stopped beside me and we spoke for a bit.

Why did I find his rant interesting? Because perception becomes reality.

If you are told the same thing over and over (whether it is true or not) it is perceived as being the truth.

When the media (or anyone) repeatedly tells the general public the same thing over and over, we run the risk of the general public perceiving it as reality.

Perception becomes reality.

In this case I see someone experienced - to a degree unknown to me but no dounbt experienced and participating - in the situation and making comments. I don't see this as complete perception -> reality. I see someone who's living the life and may have a slightly negative view of some of those who participate in an activity who this person doesn't see as putting in the appropriate amount of effort.

CNN/UL/generall public comments from those who would appear to have minimal, if any, understanding of the activity and reasons for involvement are perceiving based upon a limited exposure via what they've read on the web and seen on TV. Their reality, along with that of those who believe everything they read ot view on TV, is the part that's suspect.

 

[ExploreTheEast]

I've been covered under Colorado's CORSAR card for 3 years. You can buy it for a single year at 3 bucks, but 5 years is only $12, so it's a steal. If each individual state was that cheap, I'd buy one in every state I hike in.

http://www.dola.state.co.us/dlg/fa/sar/sar_purchase.html

I figure- this is one of the few types of insurance you can buy where your money is probably going to help to rescue someone at some point, even if that person is never yourself.

That, and the fact that I'm naturally negligent anyway, so it's amazing that I haven't already needed it.