Xmas gift help - GPS unit

[Stan]

Here's a link to Canadian Topos if you don't already have it. I'm sure you can use your new toy in Canada but remember to discount your position by 20%.

Happy New Year to you and the Turtle Sisters!

 

[arghman]

Hmm, most of the posts here on why to use/not use a GPS have been about using it to find out where you are. Some of use use it to find out where things are. I've used mine to map locations of rare alpine plants (for reporting to NH Natural Heritage Inventory), also have used it to map existing logging roads / trails for a 200-acre property I help monitor. (Although I will say that the entry level GPS's don't cut it for mapping/GIS work; accuracy is OK but management of waypoints is too clumsy. Imagine if you had to access files on your hard drive but they were all restricted to being in one directory. )

I rarely use it to figure out where I am, though it has been very useful once or twice in doing that. (sardog1: what do you guys use it for? is it to determine what ground you've covered during SAR operations?)

 

[spider solo]

questions..and musings

Thanks Stan ...first thing I noticed ...yours is the name of choice for the instruction booklet so I do have to pay close attention !!

Holdstrong...What is an IT manager ? I'm afraid I am a bit TM (technologiclly moronic) I get a kick that we both got the same present for Christmas.. I would guess you will have it fiqured out long (years) before I do.

Sli74 ... Not to worry ... I think I have about 20 hrs into it...and have mastered changing the batteries so I do take great pride in that.
I must admit I have thought many a time of beating it with a large stick but have refrained (so far)...still I do have some wood to chop and kindling to split and ...well it could kind of jump out of my pocket on to the chopping block...I dare not think what might happen...still I fear each piece might grow anew...and seek me out as I slumber.

.....Yet another Question...
If the Etrex Vista is water proof to 3 meters for thirty minutes would it not sink like a stone no matter how deep the water is never to be retrived again?
Would it not be a good idea to build it out of Nerf stuff like those Nerf footballs and things... so it would float and you just pick it back up.
Also if it were made out of Nerf stuff couldn't you drop it from a high precipice...jump up an down on it... and generally thrash it about with nary an ill effect ?

something learned
the Bennett Marine...Garmin Instructional Video is not really as in depth as one might hope when buying it...we were about half way through it by the time we realized that the announcers instruction to use the 'inta button' was indeed a form of English to use the Enter function...
but knew we were in for big trouble when in big bold letters it proudly stated
.......... CONGRADULATIONS you have....

methinks the editers were a snoozing on thata one!

 

[wally2q]

GPS is great

Since a nice topo map would get shredded on the 1'st hike in the mountains, I always make a color copy of the area I plan on hiking (both regular scale and enlarged versions). Bringing a copy of a map in a zip-loc bag, and a compass, I agree, is pure common sense.

So has anyone ever experienced the fun of using a map and compass to triangulate your position (in order to estimate your ETA on the summit) above tree line, while the wind is an enjoyable 40-50 mph?....... and you're in and out of the clouds whizzing by?....... the physical act of holding your map without it folding over in your hands from the wind, makes the GPS mapping feature worth while...... so you've got your map & compass in your hand and you hide behind a rock to get out of the wind, but now you can't see your land marks...... of course - if you're hiking a trail and you have an altimeter, you don't even need a compass to figure out where you are..... the reality is that most people only use a compass for fun / to practice the skill.

So let's face it: "true" map and compass skills are only put to practice in very limited situations (when you "really" don't know where you are - bushwhacking, lost / off trail, etc), and at that stage, using a GPS to pinpoint your position is in many "practical" respects better (easier) than using map & compass.....

A story:
I once took a novice on a winter camping / ice climbing trip in the middle of haliburton highlands. We got to the trail head at 11PM on Friday - our hike was to be about 16 miles (25km) one way. Since we didn't want to burn daylight on Sat., we decided to hike at night - along a trail. Towards the 20'th km, my buddy had enough. So I offered to bushwhack to cut the last (and highly convoluted) 5km down to 2. He agreed. Out came the GPS. We got there 1/2 hour later. Would not even attempt to do that with a compass (since that night you couldn't see natural landmarks, and bushwhacking with a compass bearing only results in unavoidable lateral offset error).

compass.... good
GPS makes it better

the wall......

 

[Nessmuk]

Bringing a copy of a map in a zip-loc bag, and a compass, I agree, is pure common sense.
.... the reality is that most people only use a compass for fun / to practice the skill.

So let's face it: "true" map and compass skills are only put to practice in very limited situations (when you "really" don't know where you are - bushwhacking, lost / off trail, etc), and at that stage, using a GPS to pinpoint your position is in many "practical" respects better (easier) than using map & compass...

A story:
I once took a novice on a winter camping...
...Out came the GPS. We got there 1/2 hour later.
...and bushwhacking with a compass bearing only results in unavoidable lateral offset error).

I appear to be in an increasing minority, but one thing I enjoy most about the wilderness is expending the effort of navigating by map & compass and really do know where I am at all times. I use the terrain rather than see it as an obstacle to get through as quickly as possible by plotting point-to-point without regard to what lies in between. Observing the wilderness is more important to me than easily getting to an end point. Don't get me wrong, in the situation of your story your goal was just to get the heck out of there and reach your end point as quickly and painlessly as possible - at night yet. I would have done the same thing under the circumstances, and certainly not have been able to travel very quickly or effectively at night using map and compass alone.

Most of my hiking is bushwhacking in the western Adirondacks, where the peaks are relatively low and the witchhobble underbrush is thick. I use a flexible transparent map case, protecting my map considerably better than a ziplock bag. Where I go expansive summit views are rare but rewarding and isolated. I do have plenty of streams, ravines, ponds, and ridges to guide my way. Every squiggle of a map contour is a potential fix to my position and is a portion of the wilderness that gets lodged in my memory lasting long after the trip has ended. You don't need grand views to navigate this way, just moderately varying terrain to guide you. A compass bearing only results in an "unavoidable" offset error if you wear blinders and don't pay attention to the continuous clues nature offers you along the way. Using map and compass does not mean attempting to strictly follow a bearing line drawn from A to B. Rather the method is to continuously observe and assess your surroundings, alter your course when necessary and keep tract of your position as you go. It can be done quickly and if need be while continuously on the move. Offset errors are rare, but sometimes done intentionally as a technique. When I used to bring a GPS along I'd invariably get upset with myself for the temptation to haul the thing out to confirm the position that I already knew I was at. I called it "the crutch" and disliked the unnecessary distraction to the outside world, so I stopped carrying it.

I also have a story... Shortly after the 1995 microburst blowdown I was bushwhacking with a buddy, an expert with map and compass more than I. We wanted to see if some of our favorite old growth trees were still standing. He was in fact a trainer who years earlier had taught me most of the efficient map and compass backwoods navigation techniques I still use today. But he was also a gadget guy - a balloon pilot, his van looked like a cockpit packed with specialized radios and gear. He brought along his new toy, a fancy handheld GPS. It was useful and fascinating, a little too fascinating we discovered. I was leading the bushwhack but he had the GPS. The difficult going in the blowdown made us stop frequently to rest. Every time he'd be holding the GPS to point out where we were, based on the screen that he constantly monitored without regard to outside observation. I nodded in agreement. Finally I said, "well, actually we are here instead," pointing a short distance away on the map with a twig - "see how that ridge drops there, this other one begins with a twist here, and you can just begin to see the sparkle of the pond through the jumble of massive downed trees over there. You are missing all of this that we came here for." He told me I was right and put the darn thing away for the rest of the trip. We reached the trail intersection we were looking for just as quickly and accurately.

But that is what I like to do. Yes, I do practice and use precision terrain map and compass method navigation for fun even though relying on a GPS would make life "easier", I would debate "better". But that's not why I am out there. It's my way of travel and enjoying the wilderness though I realize it may not be for everyone.

 

[wally2q]

M & C

Nessmuk I suppose confirms my prior point: "...the reality is that most people only use a compass for fun / to practice the skill..." - the implied statement is that people are generally not lost in the woods: they see the land-marks look at the map and get an instant fix. Easy as pie.

That works during the day - at night, or in poor weather (when you're stuck "in" the clouds, white-outs etc) it's a different story.

I don't think anyone out there is suggesting that we stare down at a GPS display while we're walking, just as no-one stares down on their compass, or map while they walk.

So I guess all this says: GPS is a "specific" tool or toy - use it when you need it, or when you want to play . I know I do.

the wall......

 

[Holdstrong]

Holdstrong...What is an IT manager ? I'm afraid I am a bit TM (technologiclly moronic) I get a kick that we both got the same present for Christmas.. I would guess you will have it fiqured out long (years) before I do.

IT = Information technology.... I'm really a systems engineer (I design and build networks) but where I work now my role includes managing all technology.

Which you would think means I'll be picking up the ins and outs of this device in no time.... but I tells ya, I still have trouble working my friends TiVo.

 

[Nessmuk]

That works during the day - at night, or in poor weather (when you're stuck "in" the clouds, white-outs etc) it's a different story...
...So I guess all this says: GPS is a "specific" tool or toy - use it when you need it, or when you want to play . I know I do.

Very true. The technology has certainly allowed us to do efficiently what we never could have before. It is an invaluable tool to get a specific job done, or as a useful toy. In white-outs old timers would just wait it out until the weather cleared, but now we don't have to wait if there is a schedule to meet.

One of my most memorable trips began with me canoeing several miles down the length of an otherwise familiar large lake (Stillwater Reservoir) in pea-soup fog. I set out paddling with my compass between my feet, holding course on the calculated bearing. It really was so thick I could hardly see the end of my canoe. Islands I knew I would pass by only became visible barely a canoe length away, serving to fix my position. Holding a steady course I was not suprised to see where I was when the fog eventually lifted. God, it was beautiful and terrific to be so isolated out there in that. But it would have taken a lot more thought in a wind or with course changes without extra help.

 

[John Graham]

This might be a good time to use the GPS to brush up on conventional map skills. Most serious hikers can read a contour map and plot a bearing on the map, but not that many know how to plot grid coordinates on a map. This can be very useful if you want to communicate your location to someone else and are not at an easily identifiable location. You might want this skill in order to summon help for a rescue, for example.

The Default setting for a GPS gives gives coordinates as Lattitude and Longitude, but this is not easy to plot, and most hikers prefer to use UTM coordinates. Here is an excellent website that offers a simple tutorial on using UTM coordinates: http://www.maptools.com/ .
You can easily set your GPS unit to give you coordinates in this format.

Once you have this skill, you can plot where you want to go on a topographic map with UTM grid lines and then feed those coordinates into the GPS and be given a direction and a distance to your target location. This is very useful if you are not able to travel in a straight line and so cannot rely on a bearing obtained from the map. You would still want to set the bearing obtained from the GPS onto a compass, but you would easily be able to make corrections if you wandered off the straight line route.

A fun way to hone your plotting skills is to plot your coordinates from the topographic map, without looking at the GPS, and then check to see how close you got to the GPS generated coordinates.

I would second the recommendation to buy the Garmin Mapsource TOPO software as well as the recommendation to buy National Geographic TOPO! Northeast CD mapping software, this will enable you to print out topographic maps with UTM gridlines. Don't think that you can rely on the TOPO base map loaded into the GPS, this is only 1:100,000 scale and doesn't have enough detail, besides which, the Vista screen is tiny. You are also going to need a cable to plug your GPS into your computer. I have become an avid geocacher, and this has helped me improve not only my GPS skills, but also my map reading skills. As with any tool, you need a lot of practise to become truly proficient.

 

[Nessmuk]

The Default setting for a GPS gives gives coordinates as Lattitude and Longitude, but this is not easy to plot, and most hikers prefer to use UTM coordinates.

Several years ago I had the use of an early GPS from work when they first became available to the civilian world. I played with it for a while. It had most of the functions available on more current models but did not have UTM display capability. Of course there was no topo software back then either, so I did my home map study and I manually transferred several key waypoints into the GPS in the region I would be hiking. The waypoints didn't have to correspond to any identifiable real feature, just an easy lat/long number with a pencil mark plotted on the map would do. I found I could easily verify my position by displaying the "goto" for one or more nearby waypoints, then plotting the back bearing direction and distance with my compass on the topo map. Otherwise it was impossible to accurately plot the displayed lat/long unless I tediously pre-drew lat/long lines and learned to think in "base 60". By the way, many current topo maps (at least where I go) are still not yet metric series updated with UTM grids drawn on them.

 

[wally2q]

other uses

Of course, I've used my GPS for other things (serious and fun):
- confirm my car's speedo reading error, for use agaist speeding ticket charges
- navigate my boat at night or in fog, through skinny channels and inbetween the 30,000 islands (sometimes when you know bad weather is coming "tomorrow" - you may just have to navigate to a safer anchorage before it hits - even if it's at night)
- plot my position while flying overseas (yes - my Vista captures enough satellites through that tiny airplane window)
- measure distance/speed/elevation change profile for our weekly hikes (to calculate calories burned)


but the most "rewarding" use I have ever had, was to locate the steel spikes which demarked my new property lot-corners. I had the co-ords for locations from the site plans, but the drawings were 15 years old and pre-development. All local features have been modified by developers of adjacent lots, and my spikes were buried under 3 feet of "landscaping soil". So I keyed in the locations off the plan, got to the site (in DGPS & WAAS mode, the unit can be as accurate to 1 foot). I dug a 2 foot wide hole on the 1'st corner - and the spike was there!!.... the other corners I got off vectors from that 1'st one. That activity saved me having to hire a surveyor - and that alone paid for the unit.

the wall.......

 

[John Graham]

All USGS 7.5 minute Quads have blue tick marks indicating UTM lines along the margin, along with locating coordinates. The primary coordinates, that is 1,000 meter and 10,000 meter coordinates are in larger numbers. The standard proceedure for our SAR unit is to pencil draw in these lines on all our topos. Since these are straight, this is easier than the Lat Long lines which have a slight curve. Care has to be taken to take note of the datum (NAD27 for the older maps and NAD83 for the newer ones) of these maps, as adjoining maps can be different, resulting in a roughly 200 meter difference. The datum can be found in the lower left corner of the margin. NAD83 and WGS84 datums are so close that they are treated as the same.

 

[spaddock]

The second software package is National Geographic Topo!. The NE Edition contains all the New England States, (including NY & NJ) and is actually imaged 1/24 topo maps, so you are getting an incredible deal for $99.

I was looking at the Northeastern states package that included New York, Vermont, New Hamshire and Maine and others. Talk about all the states I want to explore!

They also mentioned regional maps, one was the Adirondacks and New York capital I think. But I couldn't find these in the map stores.

Does the Northeastern package include all the detail that the regional ADK one would but would cost more because it includes the whole Northeast? Can you buy just the regional software? I called National Geographic but got a voicemail maze.

Also, is it DVD or CD-ROM?


Thanks,
Shayne

 

[Deematic]

Spaddock,
National geo topo New England region has a disk just for the adks. Its usgs so i dont see why it would have any less or more than the single area package. The
New England region is a great set, very functional.

 

[spaddock]

Is the New England package the same as the Northeast package?

Thanks,
Shayne

 

[Deematic]

Yes, Northeast.

 

[John Graham]

You would be wasting your money to buy the ADK 2 Disk set for $49 when you could buy the Northeastern 10 CD set for $99. They produce exactly the same maps. I have both and never use the ADK disk anymore. Note that this is retailed as the State Series, not the Regional Series. The regional series is the older one and not sold much anymore.

 

[spaddock]

You would be wasting your money to buy the ADK Disk for $49 when you could buy all of New England for $99. They are exactly the same maps. I have both and never use the ADK disk anymore.

Sweet.

That is exactly the information I was looking for. I just wasn't sure if the regional maps were more detailed or not. I totally agree that $100 for the entire Northeast is a much better value. Especially since when I finish my ADK 46 I'll be on to the Whites...

Amazing that I got all these responses from VFTT before National Geographic returned my phone call... The Internet rules!


Thanks,
Shayne

 

[spider solo]

nice info and stories

Well I'm hanging in there ...sort of.
Well took the Vista on it's first climb and spent about a half hr on the summit of Mt Chocorua trying to figure things out. (I can't believe how much time I've put into this already)
So...1st time I've had to change the batteries in the cold, then there I am on the top spinning around to recailibrate the compass...that went ok. Time to recailibrate the Altimeter so I type in the actual summit hight taken from the map but it didn't believe me so no big deal there.
I liked the set and go function though it didn't agree with my hand held compass (which I find much faster). Both are set to true north..(hand held set and forget) but I figured you can't sight the vista like a hand held so a few degrees here or there shouldn't be to big a trauma...I like the fact you can set it wander around and have it still point to the original course.
It worked nice on the summit but seems to fade out anytime I get anywhere near a tree..even in my own yard.
A few years ago I got together with an Entomoligst to do a preliminary inventory for a new Reserve (in Canada) much like 'arghman' mentioned. I had a compass and he had a GPS (new to him) to mark the location of certain insects and the plants they were on... though we were in forest cover denser than my own yard he seemed to have no trouble getting a reading. Though our maps were crude and I was acting as a guide to keep our 'bearings' so to speak he was able to chart our wanderings along an abandoned forest road when I said I thought we were straying he was able to track a line which showed where we differed from our hand drawn map which was helpful ....but how acurrate are his plot points? My driveway is 600 ft long when I stand halfway (300ft) and point at my house take a reading and walk to my house it tells me that I miss my house by 34 ft...What's with that ?
Back to hand drawn maps....When doing Bald Eagle observations a few years back, using a hand held compas I could sight the very tree that An eagle was roosting at, take bearings of where I was standing and say if you stand here and take this bearing that is the very tree the eagle is using. Will the 'Vista' be able to do something like that ... Is that what projecting a waypoint is all about? These are hand drawn maps (no UTM's) sometimes we would draw the tree or on a good day take a photo but some of these trees are half a mile or so away... maybe a mile.
Though not an avid bushwhacker, when I hike or bush whack I usually take a pair of sissors cut down the map to the size I want and lamanate them by puting Contact paper on both sides which for me makes them more managable but I don't go drawing lines on them..I would think that would clutter up the info.
I was duly awed that Wally2q was accurate down to the very pin buried underground ! It does show what can be done with it in the right hands. I can't fathom how long it takes to learn such a thing.
Already I can't believe how much time the thing takes up ( haven't read anything other than the manual and the "Made Easy" book since I've gotten it... Haven't been in the work shop either)

Holdstrong ....I got a chuckle about the TiVo...chuckle was now I do know what an IT manager is.... truth be known, I have no idea what a TiVo is.
Still, I must be making progress...and I do know not to drill holes in the Vista to lighten it up a tad ...so things are looking up eh ??

 

[wally2q]

Accuracy & Compass features

The compass in the GPS has ZERO to do with the GPS function. It's a totally separate bunch of electronics, housed in the same box as the GPS. The compass is a small chip which senses the lines of earths magnetic field (very simplified explanation), and sends that data to the display. ZERO to do with satellites, GPS, etc. THis chip is very easy to fool with any ferrous (iron or nickel alloy) metal in close proximity to your GPS. A car, for example, will render your GPS Compass useless as long as you are within 30 feet of it. For this reason, I will never use any electronic compass (inside your GPS, or wristwatch, etc) - a needle compass is more immune to stray fields, because it's a lot less sensitive.

The only time the GPS starts coming into the picture (while in Compass mode) is when you begin to travel at a predetermined minimum speed (set to 10 km/hr I think as a default) - the unit "switches over" to GPS vectoring bearing display as opposed to the mag-sensor. This setting (change over speed) can be configured, but out-of-the-box, it's higher than any normal walking speed. The GPS determines your travel bearing based on your GPS positions, and tells you your vector - but this is also affected by Datum and True north vs. Mag. north setting defaults in the unit.

Now, with respect to accuracy:
#1 - enable DGPS (settings menu)
#2 - enable WAAS (settings menu)
#3 - for super precision, let the GPS sit still, with clear view of at least 6 satellites, for 5 minutes. The unit needs this time to get into DGPS mode.
For better than 3 foot accuracy, the unit must see at least 8 satellites, all in DGPS (this is what I did to find the spike) - you'll see a little "D" pop up over the signal strength bar for each satellite, while in the satellite tracking screen/menu.

Altimeter calibration: if you're on a summit, instead of keying in the elevation, let the unit update the altitude from the satellite fix. Do it only once - do not enable auto-calibration, because the GPS altitude fix may force your barometer sensor reading up and down (the GPS based altitude accuracy is +/- 30 feet, whereas barometer is +/-5).

Other very important things about the Vista:
- there is a setting (again - default out-of-the-box), which says: "snap to roads". It's for vehicle navigation: if you are within a predetermined distance to a road that's programmed into the unit's base-map, it will assume you are actually on the road, and "plug your position" there.... even if the satellites say otherwise. so if you are on the line, as you move, you may see your position jump back and forth, as the unit goes in-and-out of the snapping mode. Looks like the unit can't decide where you are. Disable the feature (settings menu).
- turn off the battery saver mode. this mode updates your satellite position once or twice per minute (interpolating your position in between). In non-battery-saver mode, your update interval is something like once every 5 seconds. This has a HUGE bearing on fix reliability under tree cover

keep in mind that Garmin has made the unit multi functional. It's got sets of features, settings, etc., that when configured one way vs. another, optimize the unit for:
- marine navigation
- terrestrial nav.
- road and highway travel
- air travel
- parachuting / gliding
Unfortunately, there is no "master mode" selection which presets all the various settings to optimize the unit into a certain mode - you just have to know what you want, and set it that way. So in some respects, you just have to get well ackquainted with the unit, by playing with it, and ask lots of questions - I don't mind PMs if you want to send specific questions to me.

enjoy.......

the wall......

P.S.: I had the unit wound up so tight (and accurate), that when laying out the pegs for the corners of my house construction project, (for excavation, and elevation planning), I used nothing more than a 100' tape measure and the GPS....and that's for both lateral and elevation readings & settings. The city planners, and survey approval authority was perfecty satisfied with all postion readings made with my GPS alone. I never thought I'd get off so easy. Of course, we used much more precise equipment for placing the foundations, but to this day, the town development plan has been updated with data out of my GPS only.