ADK day group size II

[Willie]

Back to the original topic

The original discussion assumes that people (1) are aware of the regulation limiting day use group size to 15 or less, and (2) are aware of the regulation’s scope. See 6 NYCRR § 190.13(c)(1)(i). I would like to believe that those individuals that are, in fact, aware of the regulation and aware that its application is limited to the Eastern and Western High Peaks Zone (E&WHPZ) would follow the rule not only in the E&WHPZ but also follow the “spirit” of the rule in other areas.

I also believe that there are those that erroneously believe that 6 NYCRR § 190.13(c)(1)(i) applies to all wilderness areas and, because of their misunderstanding, follow the rule everywhere. Despite their misunderstanding, I salute their efforts to follow the regulation.

I also believe that there are those that are entirely ignorant of the regulation (I don’t use the word “ignorant” in a disparaging or derogatory way). Ignorance of the regulation is not necessarily a bad thing, but those are the individuals that need education (see, e,g, thread regarding the Boy Scouts). The DEC Rangers, the 46ers, and Adirondack Mountain Club, and Forums such as this one do a fine job of educating hikers about regulations.

Unfortunately, however, there are those that are aware that the regulation exists, but, for whatever reason, refuse to follow it as required in the E&WHPZ and simply ignore the rule’s “spirit” in other areas. This knowing violation of the regulation and refusal to follow its “spirit” in other areas is, in my opinion, the issue that should, and needs, to be addressed.

 

[giggy]

Hey pete - cool thread!

I would just do some creative thinking and like mentioned before - break 25 people into 5 groups of 5 - 10 feet apart.

I am with the school of thought that if your not wrecking anything not bothering anybody and not causing harm - to each thier own

I think some of rules are silly and I never could understand why the AMC (and in alll fairness the RMC) can put huts and water pumps, toilets, shelters, hotels, etc.. all over the white mountains - but someone will bust your balls about "napping" above treeline in summer in a bivy sack - I say you want to camp on a rock - its not camping if your napping! you want to hike with 20 close freinds - you go for it.

Just so we are clear - while I would never pay the $$ the amc wants for their huts - but I do not have a problem with them (huts) at all and do see their purpose - I do use the RMC ones. just pointing out what I think it a double standard. my opinion only - surely not shared by all. law is law - but we all break it petty forms from time to time I think - on the trail and off.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

All the comments here are well intentioned and valid. I agree with most of them.

However, I'm uncomfortable with the concept of abiding by the letter and the spirit of the law as described above because many people are choosing their spots about which laws to abide by. Who here drives at or below the speed limit when going to the mountains? A minority, I'd bet. What's the difference between laws like speed limits and laws like the number of people allowed to hike together? I submit that the spirit of the law says there's no difference.

I'm more of a libertarian. In my case, that means I always hike alone and always drive like hell to get to where I'm going without feeling guilty. And if I see a group of 15 people ahead of me on a trail, I go another way.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I would just do some creative thinking and like mentioned before - break 25 people into 5 groups of 5 - 10 feet apart.

That's the letter of the law.

But they expected that, and you have to be a mile apart. The rules also do not allow for groups to take different routes to arrive at a common destination (unless that destination is the parking lot).

 

[MichaelJ]

I'm coming into this a little late, and I'm not here to debate but to understand...

In the context of the regulation being discussed, what makes any given people go from separate to being part of a group? Is it as simple as knowing each other? Or do you have to have premeditatively planned the same destination at the same time? Or is there some other distinction? I'm curious how they're defining this.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

As with many things, it goes fromwhite to black thruogh a lot of shades. Clearly twenty groups of two to four, who do not know each other, yet climb Marcy, but are on the top at the same time, is not a group of 60.

On, the other hand, a church group that brings 40 people to a trailhead, and they all climb is a group of 40.

The terminology used is afiliated group.

Someone finishing their 46, having a summit celebration IS considered a group, even if there are several parties hiking up through different routes, meeting on the summit. The DEC has spoken to us about this, and asked us to mention it to our members.

On the other hand several groups of 46ers, who hike the same mountain through different routes on the same day, meet up no the summit, and say, "hey, I did't know you were hiking today."... Well that's not a group, although its effect is similar to the above.

That's why, IMO, the spirit of the law is important.

There are tour buses, which pick up 40-60 people, drive them to a trailhead, and drop them off. They are currently doing this outside of the High Peaks area, where the plan limits group size, but the legal process hasn't been completed. They're palying with the letter of the law.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Regarding trail maintenance and group size, aren't you sort of like cops for a day, 'above the law'? I'm not trying to make it sound arrogant, but if you are out there with axes and so forth, and the DEC has given you permission, what's the big deal?

(I know locally, I have the key to a County park, and I'm allowed to go in after dark and conduct astronomy meetings. If the cops see me, and once in a while they do, I am not considered trespassing. I am classified as an unpaid employee of the county).

Or is it more complicated ?

 

[Pete_Hickey]

but if you are out there with axes and so forth, and the DEC has given you permission, what's the big deal?

There are some who say that we should not have permission. They will complain. In particular, the snowmobile and ATV lobby watch what goes on, and try to twist things to their advantage.

Then there are others who would just see a large group, and say that it is wrong, except for a case of life and limb.

It isn't a legal issue at all. It's an image issue. Billy Crystal knows:

"You look Marvelous!"

It's important.

 

[MichaelJ]

There are tour buses, which pick up 40-60 people, drive them to a trailhead, and drop them off. They are currently doing this outside of the High Peaks area, where the plan limits group size, but the legal process hasn't been completed. They're palying with the letter of the law.

Interesting. On one hand, you could claim that these are in fact unaffiliated people simply taking advantage of mass transit to get to a trailhead. On the other hand, the size of the parking area at a trailhead implicitly does control the number of people using that trail and bussing people in overrides that.