Article about increases use of Mt Washington in Winter

[Breeze]

Its funny ........ thinking about portapotties on the summit. ( Was that an April Fools joke?) Hurricane Irene wiped out 18 rented porta potties being stored at the base of the Auto Road for an event in the Great Glen. When the Peabody came up over its banks, those " green rooms" went on a wild ride, and not a one of them survived.

Thankfully, all were clean and empty. The Shelburne Hydro dam has been picking pieces out of the spillway racks for quite some time.

It must just bite to be a winter hiker /climber or a BC Skier/rider and know that others who share your beloved spaces. places and passion are clueless about their own responsibilities WRT Leave no Trace.

Breeze

 

[skiguy]

On a serious note, anyone who complaines about Washington is akin to going to the circus and complaining about the smell of elephant poop.

Smelling it is one thing but stepping in it is another. I have a vision of crampon impaled feces littering the Summit and having to be the one to shovel it once all the ice and snow is gone. Maybe not portapotties but a wag bag dispenser might be the answer. Personally most of the time when I have been on top of Washington in the Winter it has been chilly enough that dropping trough is about the last thing I'm into.

 

[hikerbrian]

The issue of solid human waste has already been solved in a variety of high use back country areas across the US.

Answer: wag bags, enforced with a substantial fine, within the boundaries of Mount Washington state park.

Problem solved.

 

[Peaks]

The issue of solid human waste has already been solved in a variety of high use back country areas across the US.

Answer: wag bags, enforced with a substantial fine, within the boundaries of Mount Washington state park.

Problem solved.

And just who is going to be standing around up there in witner to levy this substantial fine?

 

[peakbagger]

This discussion does bring up a interesting question to me. Prior to the fire at the generator building the state of NH did not have permanent staffing at the summit. After the fire, the state had "temporary" staffing on the summit to keep the generators running until the new power line could be installed and now it appears as though there is close to permanent staffing at the summit year round to keep an eye on the backup generator and new septic system as well as partcipate in rescues. Somewhat coincident is the OBS somewhat more publicized policy on their lack of ability to support rescues. Perhaps there is a ulterior motive to increasing the number of resources at the summit as more resources means more employees, which would mean more skilled folks to support rescues?. Unfortunately this leads to "if they build it, they will come" mentality.

My observation is that now permanent plowing of the Cog base road has easily doubled the number of folks heading to the top in winter. Previously the access was much poorer on the west side but on a good day with low wind, bagging washington and jefferson are within the skills or many hikers that previously may have skipped it due to the extra 3 or 4 mile walk up the base road (and back). Compared to the approach from the east, I feel its a lot easier to go up via Ammo.

 

[summitseeker]

It could be worse. Remember the days when there was a hotel and horse coral up there? Probably not but I'm sure most have read about them. If I want solitude and majesty I will go to Jefferson or Adams. As Tom_Murphy already said, Mt Washington is a lost cause.

You're right, buddy. It is just demoralizing that NH's highest peak is also akin to Watercountry. If you have a car or a ticket it's up for grabs. The positive side to the non-hiking crowd is that they are, in theory, also in our corner when it comes to preserving the White Mountains. I know this sounds like an oxymoron but maybe having all those motorized folks in our corner will someday make a difference.

Z

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

If Mike Pelchat thinks it's a good idea, then I side with him. Unlike the bureaucratic naysayers he has been on the frontline for over 30 years up there and has done dozens, if not hundreds of rescues and recoveries... not having facilities open at the summit does not, IMO keep unprepared people off the mtn. They are going to go anyway, if they haven't enough sense to turn around when things get nasty it isn't IMO because they think they may reach safety if they continue upward, it's because they want to bag a peak. Once they are there, there will be no option but to turn around and hike back down. If they can't reason that out, then they are either hyperthermic, in which case they could be helped at the summit by people like Mike, or, maybe they should take up a new pastime... one less extreme... IMO the opening of the facility is not going to increase rescues/recoveries. As long as the equipment keeps improving there will be those that make the attempt... prepared or not. Sorry for those that think Mount Washington is a lost cause. As one who has contemplated the universe from its summit after the crowds have left for the day, I can think of few better spots in the mountains... buy a headlamp and head up at 5pm instead of O-dark-thirty... in mid-summer you can watch the sunset and be down Ammo before the light completely fades... 1/10th of a mile from the summit west you will be alone, no buildings, no crowds, pick a rock and relax, or go north and sit on the edge of the Great Gulf and watch the shadows fill the gulf. The summit and the buildings are a small fraction of Mount Washington. I really don't think the issue here is poo-poo... I think it's more a matter of do you want to listen to the people in charge, or the guy that knows what's going on?

KDT

 

[hikrgrl]

I hiked Mt. Whitney last summer, and sure, people used the wag bags. You know how I could tell? Because the bags were cleverly left under/behind rocks. New England doesn't have a corner on the "people who don't know what to do with their poop in the backcountry" market.

On the other hand, climbing Whitney also requires a permit from one side (the east??) which means registering - the powers that be can have some degree of control over how many people are on the mountain at one time (although if you climb the mountain from the PCT side, you do not need to purchase the permit). Same is true on the John Muir Trail - trying to get a permit for the JMT is challenging at best..."one does not simply start hiking the John Muir Trail"

 

[Driver8]

Sorry for those that think Mount Washington is a lost cause. As one who has contemplated the universe from its summit after the crowds have left for the day, I can think of few better spots in the mountains... buy a headlamp and head up at 5pm instead of O-dark-thirty... in mid-summer you can watch the sunset and be down Ammo before the light completely fades... 1/10th of a mile from the summit west you will be alone, no buildings, no crowds, pick a rock and relax, or go north and sit on the edge of the Great Gulf and watch the shadows fill the gulf. The summit and the buildings are a small fraction of Mount Washington.

My sentiments would run in the same direction as yours, Kevin. For one thing, the reason the buildings and the tourists are up there is that lots of people, not just hikers, love big mountains, and Washington's the biggest in the northeast. It only takes a bit of imagination and ingenuity to free one's mind of the many other people at the summit and, if so inclined, commune with nature and the view with some sense of solitude.

As for the increasing use of the place, as others have noted, within reason, the more people who enjoy the Whites, the more supporters there are of their preservation and the more fitter, happier, healthier people there are, all of which are commodities we could use a lot more of, for a variety of reasons.

 

[sardog1]

And where else can you watch as a teenager in the summertime crowd looks down at the rubble under the summit marker and ask his father in all seriousness, "Just how did they get all these rocks up here?"

 

[bikehikeskifish]

As winter hiking increases in popularity, there are people who aren't going to do all 48 (67 (100)) but will do Washington because it is the biggest. Same as in the other three seasons... I would venture to guess that LNT is less prevalent in this population leading to a higher percentage of people leaving a trace of themselves (I've done Washington via Tucks in summer only once, but the variety and hilarity of people heading up was most entertaining. Along the same lines as poop, I saw more cigarette butts than I've seen in all my other trips combined.)

Tim

 

[RoySwkr]

If Mike Pelchat thinks it's a good idea, then I side with him. Unlike the bureaucratic naysayers he has been on the frontline for over 30 years up there and has done dozens, if not hundreds of rescues and recoveries... not having facilities open at the summit does not, IMO keep unprepared people off the mtn.

In the summer they close the bldg at 5 or so when there's still plenty of daylight to get at least most of the way down, in winter should it close earlier or should you allow sleepovers for the tired?

After the fire, the state had "temporary" staffing on the summit to keep the generators running until the new power line could be installed and now it appears as though there is close to permanent staffing at the summit year round to keep an eye on the backup generator and new septic system as well as partcipate in rescues.

Hardly seems like a full time job, maybe should be contracted to the Observatory who already have staff there.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

I believe Mike is suggesting opening the facility in the "Spring shoulder season" in other words, late March/ April... May... before the road opens and the Cog runs. We're not talking about Winter, though there will certainly be winter conditions in those months. After daylight savings in mid-March there is approximately 12 hours of daylight to get up and down the Mtn. Roy OK, probably not what most would consider a full-time job, but someone has to be on hand for system checks, snow clearing, emergency's etc. so there is someone there 24/7. The Obs was in fact in charge of systems when the fire occurred, there was no State Park on hand. After the fire it was decided that there would be full time State Park staff on hand on the summit. I may be over simplifying the actual events, but that is how I understand it...

KDT

 

[hikerbrian]

And just who is going to be standing around up there in winter to levy this substantial fine?

You don't need anyone extra up there to levy the fine. It works in three complimentary ways:
1. Rangers are occasionally to be found up there, and they can levy the fines.
2. Just the threat of a fine is enough to keep most people from chancing it.
3. Issuance of wag bags raises awareness of the problem, and most people then recognize and respect the impact, or are peer-pressured into doing so.

All of us who lead trips encourage our participants to layer up at treeline. What if we also mentioned that "extended" bathroom breaks should be dealt with then, otherwise plan to pack out your poop until we get back below treeline? Many, many other high use areas in the lower 48 employ exactly that policy. I'm fairly confident it'll hit the Whites sooner or later.

 

[Breeze]

Kevin, thats pretty close to what I've been told, too. WMTW-TV8 for DECADES( late 1950s-2002 ? ) had engineering personnel 24/7 up on the summit, THEY were the designated operating agent for all power generation on the summit, Parks and Obs arranged for their power through WMTW.

WMTW/8 left the summit in Feb 2002 for their new facility in Baldwin ME, and there was a period of reorganization at the summit while NHState Parks bought the WMTW and Yankee Building property. At the time of the fire in Feb 2003, Parks was not on the mountain, an Obs staffer doing shift check of summit buildings discovered the fire. Obs was just a crew of 3, and had no prayer of fighting that fire. MW Obs was actually evacuated for the first time in its history that Sunday night , including Nin, the summit cat.. without power, there was no heat or water. The outage wasn't all that long, but it was a significant disruption that was felt in many directions.

I don't know how many people these days consider that those towers on the summit are truly used, and they are part of an important , heck VITAL communication network. That is part of the imperative for the agency in charge of providing POWER to the summit to be present 24/7, and now that agency is New Hampshire State Parks. It can't be contracted out, there is no other "ownership of record" on the summit. OBS is a lessee, not an owner. If power from the valley goes down, State Park crew has to be there to switch over to the generators, and monitor the production. That's mandated by the FCC, to make sure that the comms network is protected. Just a couple of those parties affected would be New Hampshire State Police, and New Hampshire DOT in the Carrol/Coos/Grafton county areas. That is also why NH State Parks keeps that Tank Farm topped up with 30,000 gallons of K1, so that they could self-generate power for quite an extended time should there be an event that took down the surface power grid ( remembering the ice storm of '98 here) .

Many times things are not as they seem from the outside, and it could be easy to diss or pile on a situation that has more under the surface than meets the eye.

Breeze

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Thanks, Breeze!

KDT

 

[Tom Rankin]

All of us who lead trips encourage our participants to layer up at treeline. What if we also mentioned that "extended" bathroom breaks should be dealt with then, otherwise plan to pack out your poop until we get back below treeline?

You can spend just about all day above tree line around Mt. Washington...

 

[Breeze]

Awe, thanks, Kevin.
Breeze

 

[hikerbrian]

You can spend just about all day above tree line around Mt. Washington...

In fact you can spend several days above treeline if you're so inclined. Similar to many other high use areas in the lower 48. I'm not sure what your point is...?

 

[RoySwkr]

Obs was just a crew of 3, and had no prayer of fighting that fire. MW Obs was actually evacuated for the first time in its history that Sunday...
That is part of the imperative for the agency in charge of providing POWER to the summit to be present 24/7, and now that agency is New Hampshire State Parks. It can't be contracted out, there is no other "ownership of record" on the summit...
Many times things are not as they seem from the outside, and it could be easy to diss or pile on a situation that has more under the surface than meets the eye.

If the Obs crew of 3 can't fight the fire, how can one State Parks employee, or now are you proposing that they keep a full engine crew up there 24/7 ?

There are many communication towers all over the state and very few have staff present 24/7. I agree that the summit of Mt Washington may take longer to reach in an emergency and may be impossible in some conditions, but by the same token maybe nobody should be there at all. And if it is the comm equipment that's critical, is that Parks employee an FCC-licensed radio repair person?

The statement that it can't be contracted out is ludicrous, almost anything can be contracted out including running state prisons (although that particular idea has been rejected by Gov. Hassan.) The MWO staff are very capable people who could be trained to perform the few minutes per day of checks and maintenance required (and it's important to them that it works!) and there is a team of several people already available 24/7. MWO apparently has financial issues and a rent reduction for this would be very nice, as compared to a rent increase to pay for a State presence which conceivably could put them over the edge.

Certainly I don't know as much about Mt. Washington as Mike Pelchat, but I see a lot of budget squabbles in Concord and no way can the state afford to pay the 4 people certified in radio repair and firefighting that would be required for 24/7 staffing.