Bad news from the Cog railway

[Dalraida]

Anger?

Possibly the "angry" response you got was due the the dawning realization that their "grand plan" to turn the cog into a ski area is not going to work out. People pay to ski in a variety of terrain. Not $25.00 a run on one piste. "Better to be off piste than piste off". BC Rules

 

[SherpaKroto]

This is really weird, and doesn't make much business sense. I called the Cog in late fall, and was told that parking would be allowed at the lower lot, just as it was in summer, for hikers, for a fee. This past summer, I was charged $5, and was given a piece of paper marked "hiker parking" to place on the windshield, and directed to park in the lower lot on the right, just below the main Cog lot. No issues, and all dealings were very courteous.

Dalraida may have hit the nail on the head. You would think that they would want that extra $20-50 from the 4-10 cars that would be parking there on a nice winter day. At least they would have some cars in the lot

 

[afka_bob]

I find the entire WMNF region and businesses to be overwhelmingly hiker-friendly. So the Cog won't allow you to free load there. Big deal. You wanna hike? Then what are you bitchin that the walk is too long for?

Talk about pollution-belching stink, our cars, trucks and SUVs that we drive every day account for more than half of the air pollution in the state of NH, and an uncalculated amount of pollution in the places they are built.

The Cog railroad is a really cool living historical artifact and I am very glad of it's existence. It pollutes, sure, but so do we all driving to the trailheads, driving to work, heating our homes, wearing petroleum-product-based underwear, sweaters, shells, and boots, etc. I've been on the Cog and will go again in a flash. If I never rode on it, I hope I would have the vision to appreciate it for what is was and is, not just what it could do for me.

Ditto Seema!!

I think the Cog people--or at least the woman Jim spoke with--are the ones being mean spirited here.

Actually, when Mr. Lombard -- in reaction to being told that he cannot use another's private property exactly the way he wishes -- says:

I really do hate the Cog railway, they've never been hiker friendly and this is another strike against them in my book. I would never ride that black smoke belching, coal vomiting behemoth!

and:

...Stinky rotted soot coated nasty crab apples indeed!

it's not too much of a stretch to call him "mean-spirited."

My daughter often reacts this way when told no, but I hope she grows out of such childishness. We're doing what we can to see that she does.

PS to truepatriot09 (are the other eight "truer"? -- and if it kills you, why aren't you dead yet? ): you speak condescendingly of those who could -- but would not -- walk, taking the Cog instead. Do you mean "would not walk as far as you?" May I then also regard you contemptuously for not wishing to walk as far as from Crawford Notch parking? I guess it's just a matter of how much walking that makes one worthy of respect.

I just believe that if you want to stand on top of a mountain, you need to get yourself up it ... There are those who drive up Mt. Washington, slap a sticker on their car and think they accomplished something.

To be accurate (and fair) the bumper sticker says, "this car climbed Mt. Washington" -- and if you saw the old Ford Granada a friend and I drove up there, you would call it an accomplishment for the car, too. We neither deserved nor expected praise for our part, just a good view, and we got it. And there are those who drove to the Cog lower parking lot and hiked and act as smug as if they were Tenzing or Hillary* (er, Sir Edmund to you NYers), it seems. Again, everybody walks a little bit, even if only from the car, or from the car to the ticket office to the train. Now, is there a minimum walking distance that gives you the right to call "them" slugs while still complaining that "your" parking place is too far from the summit?

*Everything I have read of Tenzing Norgay and Sir Edmund Hillary indicates they were not smug or arrogant. And they really accomplished something. And in leather boots, too!

 

[skiguy]

This is Winter Hiking we are Talking about

We are Hikers
That means we Hike.
This is Winter.
That means alot of the time it is Harder.
That means alot of the time it is less accessable.
Relish the sense of adventure that this season brings.
Twenty years ago you could hike almost any trail in the
Whites and not see another soul in Winter let another
car at the Trailhead.
Now we are building overflow Parking lots (a.k.a. Frankenstein Cliffs),
slapping down Visa Cards and buying Plastic Boots;then expecteing
it is our God Given Right to park our vehicules in a place that is accesible
to every 4000ft peak in NH within a day's reach in WINTER????????
Let's get real here. Again hiking in the Whites is a privilege. Go out, earn it and embrace the challenge for what it is.
Next thing you no someone will be whining that the toilets are'nt open at Lakes all year round!

 

[jethro]

This conversation is denigrating fast; for those interested in climbing the Ammo this winter including myself, can we get a contact for Cog management and get an official response to us offering to pay a parking fee/sign liability waiver?

If the answer is GFY, end of story.

 

[afka_bob]

This conversation is denigrating fast....If the answer is GFY, end of story.

I think it was deteriorating fast -- it had already become denigrating. But thanks for, uh, F-ing elevating the rhetoric!

 

[Waumbek]

Cog contact

Wayne Presby is one of the owners of the Cog, along with Bretton Woods ski area and the MW Hotel. Here's his somewhat outdated bio from the Mt Washington Obs site. (Note his views on hiker responsibility in the last paragraph; I think NH had just introduced the code of responsibility to discourage multi six-pack moonlight hikes.) I'm not sure what the perfect approach to this major entrepreneur on the hiker parking deal would look like, but I'd skip the part about nasty phone responses and mean-spiritedness for sure. It's his site (along with his partners), so to speak, even if it is grandfathered in on the WMNF now. (And I also wonder about the liability issue since I've always parked in the Cog lot in summer with no problem.) What might appeal to Mr. Presby is something in the same vein that he argued for the Cog to open up for winter skiing.

 

[NHGal]

I think that Forestnome has a point. This is a STATE road, which is why our taxes are paying for the STATE to plow it. Though I can see why they would prohibit cars from parking along the road in the places where the snowmobile trail runs alongside, I believe that from the Jefferson Notch road onward there is no snowmobile trail. Is it a designated No Parking zone from here to the Cog? If so, then never mind. But if not, then wouldn't you be able to park alongside the road as long as all four wheels are off the road? Not easy when the snowbanks are high, but during a snowless winter, it should be doable. I avoid hiking on weekends, but does anyone know whether overflow from Ammonoosuc/Jewell parking lot ever parks on the side of the road during the summer?

Afka_bob -- just had to add that I love your remark about how much hiking is required. Very funny and very true.

 

[afka_bob]

parking/plowing state roads

Afka_bob -- just had to add that I love your remark about how much hiking is required. Very funny and very true.

Thanks!

Not sure how it works out in the puckerbrush, but here in the Big City, you can't park along a road that is going to be plowed during a snow emergency (they ticket or tow). That could be a complication to parking along a state road that must be kept plowed, particularly if hiker/campers are going to park overnight or even longer.

 

[Waumbek]

But if not, then wouldn't you be able to park alongside the road as long as all four wheels are off the road?

I think the question may be less "can one do this?" than "does one really want to do this?" The fenders of my cars have been "kissed" by monster snowplows more than once over the years. There's virtually no recourse either when you come back and find them bashed in. Even in "snowless" winters, which this one largely has been so far, plow trucks are out--not necessarily plowing but salting and sanding for freezing rain, as they are tonight up here.

 

[Rick]

Afka_Bob & Skiguy - Thanks for putting it into words. I wrote 2 comments in as many days and deleted them both, because I couldn't find the right words.

I am also amazed to see how quickly someone has decided the thread is denigrating because another brings up a different POV - where was the denigrating comment when the owners were being called mean-spirited or spiteful.

There have been plenty of times where I thought the hike into the Santanoni's or Allen or the Ausable club could have been shortened if the landowners (or Ausable Club Bus) were more accomodating, but I suck it up and get lost in thought as I hike along (and I plan my vacation days accordingly). I'm plenty glad just to be able to get out and hike - And I get a kick out of seeing the Cog roll along!

Oh, and FWIW, I wouldn't ever want my own rights as a legitimate taxapaying landowner to become diminished because someone doesn't agree with the lawful manner in which I use my land.

 

[NHGal]

Even in "snowless" winters, which this one largely has been so far, plow trucks are out--not necessarily plowing but salting and sanding for freezing rain, as they are tonight up here.

Understood; you would certainly have to be aware of the forecast, and I surely wasn't suggesting an overnight. But people park all of the time on the side of the Easton Road (Rte 116) near the Reel Brook Rd and near the Kinsman Trail in the winter. That's a State road, too. Sometimes it's plowed a bit wider; sometimes it's snowless, but it's not prohibited if you're not interfering with traffic.

Afka_Bob, I think that though the State can surely post no-parking zones, the blanket prohibitions against overnight parking generally are town/city ordinances. Littleton has such a prohibition, and there are signs scattered through town reminding people of this (and annual reminders in the local paper when November arrives).

 

[giggy]

I did say I respected their right not to let hikers park. And I don't think its right for others blasting those of us for bringing up this legimate point. Many of us were happy that this road was being plowed to try some new adventures on these mountains by different routes. I am not lazy and am not bit**ing about the length of the hike. I drive 3+ hours to hike one way and simply don't have the time with a family etc, to do 3 day weekends all the time. Also - did it ever occur that maybe some of us enjoy above treeline much better than the approach. With a plowed road, it just seems crazy not allow the parking.

I am just was one of those that was looking forward to this and my bic**ing was just trying to get some ideas off fellow hikers on how to maybe try and make a case to the cog that it can benefit both parties to allow the parking and yes when I called, they were not pleasant to me.

I should also add that I like the cog operating on the mountain and have nothing against it whatsoever.

 

[Tim Seaver]

Cog Enabled Mountaineers

This from the sidebar of United Airlines's December in-flight mag, in an article titled "The Cog That Could":

"Mountaineers will benefit, too. The Cog train brings the 6,288-foot summit a lot closer for climbers"

 

[rondak46]

giggy.......

You said: "I should also add that I like the cog operating on the mountain and have nothing against it whatsoever."

Are you allright with the belching smoke? I couldnt believe it when I saw it; the cog was enough, the smoke was absurd; especially in this day and age.

The motto: "Land of many uses" always gives me the chills.

newyorkdoesitright

Mike

 

[afka_bob]

chills? try a sweater and a hot beverage...

Are you allright with the belching smoke? I couldnt believe it when I saw it; the cog was enough, the smoke was absurd; especially in this day and age.

The motto: "Land of many uses" always gives me the chills.

newyorkdoesitright

Mike

I'm not giggy (but I play one on TV ), but I will respond if I may.

Am I OK with the Cog? Yeah -- especially when I look at the big picture.

For 16 of the last 18 years, I either walked to work or took public transportation. I carpool now. I own a small car and drive as little as reasonably possible. For at least six of those last 18 years I did not own a car. I recycle what I can, and try not to generate a lot of garbage. I don't have a fireplace. I've decided to never use a downhill ski area again because of the damage I see that they do to fragile mountain ecosystems. I keep the heat under 68F in the winter and don't air-condition in the summer. I don't use any chemical fertilizer on my small yard which is near a vulnerable watershed. I watered a small part of my lawn in the spring to get new seed to grow, but I don't water it regularly, if at all, much less every night with an automatic sprinkler system. We didn't build a house, we bought a small, efficient existing home (<1300 square feet). Before that we lived in a small apartment.

I do what I can to live as cleanly as I can every day. I do these things myself. I can't (and don't want to) force anyone else to. I'd be delighted if more people chose to live this way themselves, but I won't hold my breath or hate them if they don't.

My wife and I have a child. We've tried to minimize the impact of disposable diapers by using a diaper service. Not perfect, but it seemed the best way we could find. We didn't get an SUV or a minivan in response to parenthood (she is just one child, after all) and have managed quite well. We are also trying to teach her how to live responsibly and to not use more than her share of landfills, atmosphere, and oceans. We're also teaching her to share, chilling as that may be to you. She loves trains, and I hope to take her for a ride on the Cog someday soon.

The Cog's pollution is (to me) acceptable in the face of the historical and cultural value of its continued existence and operation.

The Cog is an historic artifact, unlike the new time-share ski condos covering every available acre, using all the water, and flushing "wastewater" into overtaxed treatment systems, with parking lots full of SUVs from Massachusetts, "doitright" NY, and New Hampshire, New Jersey, Connecticutt, etc.

These condos are part of the diverse uses, too,* and I suppose the condos are better than each and every one of those visiors getting their own place. They don't chill me, but I'd rather they were not here.

I wish that no logging was done here, but I live in a wood-framed house and consume paper, and I realize many others also aspire to my lavish lifestyle and then some. It has to be done somewhere and hope it is done responsibly.

Snowmobilers? As far as know, they are citizens with rights. I don't care for the hobby myself, but I can't agree with blanket prohibitions. I choose not to, but I'm the only one I can choose for.

Hunters? Ditto.

"Land of many uses" = Chills? Perhaps you could stand to chill a bit (or, as you say, "relax, buddy") (and check ot Sherpa John's signature). I would find this more chilling: "Land of one use," 'cause what if that use wasn't the one I'd pick for it?
_________________________________________

*There is at least one ski area on WMNF land, and the condos serve these skiers, no doubt, as well as hikers, hunters, snowmobilers, etc.
_________________________________________

PS to giggy: if you are directing your last post (at least in part) to me, I quoted the folks I meant to respond to -- you (and they) are certainly free to express your opinions, but I wasn't referring directly to you.

There are a lot of places I would go if I had the time. There are so many places I can go to now. Trying to work out a way to do this particular one is great. Starting out (as Jim Lombard (and darren, and others) did) by saying how much one hates the nasty smelly people at the Cog probably won't be effective.
_________________________________________

PPS to Tim Seaver: beautiful avatar!

 

[giggy]

Do I personally like the COG? - no I don't, Do I respect the right for them to operate there, 100% - I do many of the things afka bob mentioned, but if someone wants to ride the train to the top, who the heck I am so say otherwise. Most of my freinds don't hike or climb but and sit in the bar all day and are overweight, and drive SUV's. But - that is their choice. Bad choice IMHO, but thats their deal.

afka bob - no worries, I see all points here. thanks for mentioning it though.

The bottom line is I was pretty exited to use these approaches and now I am disapointed we can't without the longer approach. I also have had nothing but great dealings with people/businesses in the WMNF area. Thats why I am kind of shocked that the cog is doing this - an I would bet that they could be reasoned with in

 

[Jasonst]

Aside from Jim's first comments, has anyone recently contacted the Cog railway to find out if they have relaxed their no parking stance yet? I could understand if they rejected hikers during the Christmas - New Years week due to volume, but perhaps they will back off a bit when they begin to slow down a bit?

 

[Sherpa John]

Working at WMUR NEWS 9, I get to see hear and FEEL the rumble of The coal train that travels to the BOW, NH coal burning power plant on a dialy basis, and it reminds me of how much our society still rely's on such fuels for its many uses. The cog railway being one of those uses.

I'll be honest. ON a windy day hiking Washington over Lions head... a quick whiff of cog smoke adds to the mystic of the mountain and its fabled history. It adds to the adventure for me, and seeing peoples faces when I am at the sign on the summit having hiking from god knows where is priceless.

But it is in my opinion that the Ammanoosic Lower Lots WERE indeed built and/or rebuilt for the specific use of hiker parking. It truly is a shame that we cannot drive to said lots to park and embark on our great adventures into the mysterious wilds. And why? because of Man's machines whether they be of historical signifigance of of noisy hindrance.

I have never wrode on a snowmobile and do not desire to do so. I have never taken a ride on the Little Train that Could.. and does.. and for the steep price charged, I'd rather take a steep hike than ride it. But in the end.. I PAY my YEARLY parking fee for that little 2x2 sticker we put on our car windows and you bet your bottom I expect to use ALL available parking lots IF it is feasble I get to it. IF the road is not plowed... so be it.. if it is.. I expect to be able to park.

And as far as those who ride the train... this summer I met a young lady who was NOT anywhere near in any physical condition to have hiked Mount Washington. She had rode the train to the top with a small backpack in tow.. and she took it upon herself to take a stroll down the trail towards the Lakes. And even though she took the great polluter to the top... I tipped my hat to her for doing something she probably would only do.. and enjoy once.

"These mountains were meant to be shared..."

 

[rondak46]

Chilling USF policies...

I took a long trek a few years ago out west. The destruction from logging that I saw was (to me ) unbelievable and chilling. Time after time I would drive hundreds of mile through desert or near desert; I would enter a big forest as climbed into the mountains, and I would find that the center had been gutted. Dozens of forests I saw were decimated and I did not even get beyond the mountain states.


I very much value the way the NYS constitution protects NY forests from the NFS and some of the many uses it might otherwise oversee.

Mike