BC info?

[Trainwreck]

Along the line of the tele thread, are there any BC skis that are good for 'all-around" I'd like to be able to use these on both lift server terrain as well as in the backcountry. I'm kind of confused as to where to start. Ideas?
Thanks,
Sandy

 

[cbcbd]

What kind of BC are you looking to do? Rolling hills, hard descents, deep powder...etc. Any places in particular that you would like to ski?

What binding are you looking at? Tele, AT, BC?

 

[sardog1]

Along the line of the tele thread, are there any BC skis that are good for 'all-around" I'd like to be able to use these on both lift server terrain as well as in the backcountry. I'm kind of confused as to where to start. Ideas?
Thanks,
Sandy

All nordic backcountry trails lead eventually to pinnah's Dave's Nordic Backcountry Skiing Page. EDIT: (Yeah, he's wearing a red parka. No, he's not me.)

 

[Trainwreck]

I am looking to do steeps, hopefully powder, but nore likely crud, and would like an easy gliding ski for the way up. I'm looking for straight BC, I haven't had the nerve to attempt tele yet, but once I get a lesson, I may consider it. For now I'm all about being able to fix the binding for alpine downhll after skinnng up.
Thanks. I'll check out Daves' page.
S.

 

[cbcbd]

I am looking to do steeps, hopefully powder, but nore likely crud, and would like an easy gliding ski for the way up. I'm looking for straight BC, I haven't had the nerve to attempt tele yet, but once I get a lesson, I may consider it. For now I'm all about being able to fix the binding for alpine downhll after skinnng up.
Thanks. I'll check out Daves' page.
S.

Ok, cool. But just to avoid some confusion let me clear some terminology from what I know:

Backcountry (BC) skiing - is a term used to define any skiing with any skis/bindings that is done outside of a ski resort boundary.

Backcountry skis and bindings (also referred to as BC skis or BC bindings) - this is a large and vague segment of skiing, IMO, since it can involve an array of ski/boot/binding combinations. BC skis and skiing is usually best for rolling hills where you'll see lots of ups and downs. Because of this you'll want to get a ski that you wax the middle for ascending, or a waxless - one that has a scaled middle bottom which lets you get up smaller hills and still gives you regular glide for the way down. This segment can include skinnier skis - some with no metal edge, softer bindings, and soft leather boots. But it can also include fatter skis with metal edges, with tele bindings and a plastic tele boot. Note: BC bindings have a free heel. sardog1's link is great for info on this segment.

Alpine Touring (aka AT aka Randonnee) - is a binding that allows you to unhook your heel for ascent and to lock it back in for descent

Telemark - is a binding and a turn - allows to have the heel free for ascending and the toe connection is strong enough for you to pivot on it for descending using the telemark turn


So for what you're talking about it sounds like a non-BC ski with an AT binding might work for you. For the ascents you would have to put climbing skins on the ski and then remove them for the descent. This setup is best for both BC skiing and resort skiing of the locked-heel kind. It works best for tours where you'll have a long uphill followed by a long and stoke-filled downhill - ie. Sherburne trail, Gulf of Slides, Tuckerman, Thunderbolt trail on Greylock.

As for skis... basically pick the thickness depending on how much powder you seek BD has their line, G3 has theirs, K2... these are just some of the ones which have lines dedicated to BC skiing (of the downhill type, not BC waxed/waxless ski type). These skis can usually be used both with an AT or a Tele binding.

There aren't many places, but some places do rent Tele and AT setup skis. N Conway EMS has both for rent. Anyway, I'm sure I'll think of more stuff to say Confused yet?

 

[Trainwreck]

Thank you!
I think what I want is randonee, which is french for 'can't telemark'
I rented skis, boots and poles from EMS this past WE, and unfortunately, had some crazy issues with the bindings (kept releasing on the uphill, which always was followed by a fall) They had a kind of 'oh, well" attitude when I pointed out that this was IMO, dangerous, ao unfortunately, I'll need to rent from somewhere else next time
Thanks for the info. Now I'll muddle through my options, though I may just get a cheap starter ski (with a good binding) so I don't have to deal with renting...
S.

 

[Chip]

FWIW: (and all this info is available in previous posts) I pieced together a Alpine Touring/Randonee set a couple years ago. I have Silvretta 404 bindings and Atomic Chugach skis. I paid about $150 for them, so that STP price isn't bad. I can use these with my double plastic boots, koflach degre's (not really recommended) or with a pair of AT boots (I have Koflach Arctis randonee boots). My idea, and I haven't been the first and won't be the last, was to put something together I could do "everything" with. Well, nothing's perfect. I'm not yet into real backcountry steep powder turns skiing. I do more "approach" type skiing/touring and some groomed downhill with this gear. On beginner and intermediate downhill trails with little or no ice this has been fine. Also FWIW I had a conversation with a guy hiking to Muir on Rainier with the exact same set-up (using the Degre's). He confirmed it's fine for good snow and moderate slopes, but not for anything too demanding. The 404's are considered antiques probably but function great for my purposes. They can be bought off ebay cheap or you could treat yourself to the 500's.

 

[TCD]

cbcbd, that's good clarification. There are a couple threads now on this, with lots of good information. The challenge is that there is a lot of detail.

You have to learn a lot and try things before deciding what to buy.

Here's my 2 cents:

Bindings:

There are three major ways to attach a boot to a binding: alpine (both toe and heel attached); tele (free heel); and randonee (convertible, free heel to heel attached). There are also some minor variations out there.

Tele is a little hard to learn, but is the most flexible. You can make "alpine" turns on tele equipment. Randonee is not as flexible as you would think, because most randonee equipment is poor for tele. (This is because the heel is generally completely free pivoting with little or no resistance, unlike tele gear, where there is resistance to lifting the heel.) So on a "lots of ups and downs" trip, that can be a challenge. Randonee is ideal if you don't tele, and you plan "long continuous uphill followed by long continuous downhill" trips. That's why there is a lot more randonee use out west.

Skis and boots:

Years ago, there was a big gulf between tele gear and alpine gear. Tele gear was generally "cross country" like: soft, low leather boots, long, skinny, double camber skis. Today, the spectrum is fully populated, and you can select pretty much any ski or boot you want.

Selecting gear: No set up will be ideal for all trips; you will always be compromising. You have to develop an idea of what trips you want to do, and pick the best compromise. Longer, skinnier, more cambered skis perform better on flat trails; shorter, wider, less cambered skis perform better turning downhill. Similaraly, boots are a trade off between downhill control and stiffness and weight.

Learning: Whatever set up you choose, by FAR the best place to learn how it works downhill is at a lift served ski area, starting with a lesson. You can make dozens of runs in a day, and focus purely on learning, without worrying about fitness to climb hills, cold (just go inside), carrying a pack, backcountry preparedness, etc. (Once you are comfortable, you can start carrying a heavy pack at the lift served area to learn to ski with it.)

Have fun!

Tom

 

[cbcbd]

Thanks for the info. Now I'll muddle through my options, though I may just get a cheap starter ski (with a good binding) so I don't have to deal with renting...
S.

Bummer about the ems rental... sorry.

For AT bindings the main players and popular bindings are:

Marker Duke - Heaviest and stiffest option. Heavy and great for intense downhills. Good for shorter tours where downhill performance is the priority. Not the easiest to use since to switch from touring to ski mode you have to take your boot off the binding to lock/unlock.

BD Fritschis and Naxos - More popular bindings weighing in about the same. Very easy to use and maintain. Great and popular for NE tours.

Silvretta - Although they make bindings similar to the Fritschis or Naxos where they differ is their climbing boot compatible line that Chip mentioned. The new ones that they offer are the 500s. The older lines like the 404s work with the same concept - use a toe bail so you can use mountaineering boots or skiing boots with it.

Dynafit - If weight is the priority and if you race these are it. They do not function like a "regular" step-in binding and you need to buy boots that have the dynafit fittings. This is the most expensive option but way lighter... IMO not as "necessary" in the NE. If you're really interested in this go here. Feel free to click around on that site too for loads and loads of skiing info.

For finding used you'll generally have an easier time finding Fritschis(newer - black, older - white), Silvretta 404s, and maybe some Naxos. I'd go for Fritschis. Plenty out there. Make sure to get the right size for your boots!

 

[David Metsky]

People have failed to mention the Alpine Trekker system, which snaps into existing alpine bindings. It's probably right to fail to mention them. They're heavy, raise you up higher then is comfortable, and don't do anything particularly well.

If Randonee is French for "Can't Telemark", Telemark is Norwegian for "Wait for me at the bottom".

-dave-

 

[Chip]

Silvretta The only downside to these bindings is that they do not release.

Depends on how hard you fall.

The 500's are supposed to have some sort of release.

 

[Trainwreck]

Thank you for all of this informaton overload I'd love to figure this all out. By summer, I will have... I hope.
Sandy

 

[DougPaul]

I think what I want is randonee

Just in case anyone is confused:
randonee = alpine touring (AT).

Doug

 

[The Lisa]

You will have a lot of fun BC skiing, Sandy. I started skiing last winter, starting immediately with an Alpine Touring (AT) setup, since the goal was to ski primarily in the back country.
I have Fritschi's Freeride Plus bindings, with brakes, on Black Diamond's Mystic skis (on sale for a ridiculously cheap amount at the moment as they are being discontinued ).
Although my setup is at the heavier end of the binding range, they are very dependable, sturdy, easy to release the heel for skinning uphill, easy to lock the heel down for downhill skiing. They have only ever 'insta-teled' on me twice, and that was most likely user error, stomping unnecessarily hard on a turn.
Have fun experimenting and do not let it last until summer. Let us know what you end up with.
I do want to rent tele gear one of the days and give that a try. I must be feeling nostalgic for falling over every two minutes, for some reason.

 

[cbcbd]

Depends on how hard you fall.

The 500's are supposed to have some sort of release.

Oops, you're right:
http://www.wildsnow.com/backcountry...country-skiing/silvretta-404-backcountry.html
http://www.wildsnow.com/backcountry-ski-museum/silvretta-easy-go/silvretta-500-easy-go.html

The release is not from the toe, but the heel releases laterally and vertically.